It needs quite a bit to ignite metals as found on ships (small metal grains can be ignited quite easily and burn heftily) and certainly you do not want to put water on such a fire! This will bring more oxygen into the fire as the water would dissociate at such temperatures!

The main issue on ships would not be a metal fire but - as with every metal structure - the fact that metal 'looses' it`s strength when getting hot - Aluminuim soon than steel. So you have to add some extra material and proper insulation to allow a structure to withstand a fire.

P.S. There is no way to construct a building - not to talk about a ship - soley from 'non-flamable' materials.

[ 03-26-2006: Message edited by: Ernst ]

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Originally posted by mrblanche:
The good news is that it rarely ignites. But that was a big concern with the US Navy on some of their newer ships, which had aluminum structures above deck to keep down their weight.

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Originally posted by Waynaro:
So basically even though her Aluminum balconies are burnt away, her aluminum frame/structure inside the superstructure could be weaker because of the fire?

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This is possible - but I guess (I DO NOT KNOW) the Aluminum structure on the inside has not been harmed. (it is for sure better insulated)

Using Aluminium or not is somehow a 'question of preference' - a lot of people do not like it (and avoid it) because it has some disadvantages in case of a fire - which have to be 'compensated' by other measures. (insulation etc.)

BTW: I always wondered whether there are measures aboard modern cruise ships to protect lifeboats and muster station from a fire. Oil platforms are equipped with lifeboats like this one.
Maybe a system to cover the muster stations and lifeboats with a mist during a fire should be considered for cruise ships.

Also, it seems as if the stragy to control a fire on the open decks/balconies has to be revised.

[ 03-26-2006: Message edited by: Ernst ]

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Cruise investigation - Former US official calls for criminal inquiry, new regulations
Earl Moxam, Senior Gleaner Writer
March 26, 2006

FOLLOWING THE fire aboard a cruise ship heading for Montego Bay on Thursday, a prominent transport safety expert in the United States has sounded the alarm regarding what he claims are lax regulations governing the cruise shipping industry.

Jim Hall, former chairman of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), wants "a thorough investigation" into the cause of the early-morning fire and the response aboard the Star Princess, and implementation of stronger regulations.

"Here you have had a death and serious injuries on the high seas and in Jamaican waters and it appears that a criminal investigation might be warranted to see whether the cruise ship industry had taken adequate steps to protect the safety of its passengers. I certainly hope the U.S. Congress will follow the lead of the Jamaican government as well in looking into this serious accident."

DEFENDING CREW'S PERFORMANCE

On the other hand, the local agent for the cruise line involved in Thursday's incident has mounted a robust defence of the ship crew's performance during the emergency, the investigation of which the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has reportedly joined.

"When it was reported the ship was 51 nautical miles northwest of Jamaica. The ship was travelling at approximately 20 knots. You had a head wind of 15 knots. And you put that together, you had over 35 knots of wind to propel that fire ... and the ship's crew proved that they were able to contain and put that fire out by themselves," said Fritz Pinnock, managing director of Lannaman and Morris Shipping Ltd, during an interview on 'Good Evening Jamaica', on Power 106.

One passenger, Richard Liffidge, 75, of Georgia in the U.S., died of a heart attack, and three persons were hospitalised, while several others were treated at Cornwall Regional Hospital for minor injuries sustained during Thursday's fire emergency on the Star Princess.

Speaking from his office in the United States, Jim Hall cited the need for a full inquiry into the incident.

"(In) a fire of this size and magnitude ... it appears that there are a number of issues that Congress as well as the Jamaican Government would want to look into," Hall, NTSB chairman during much of the Clinton administration, told The Sunday Gleaner.

The Star Princess incident, he said, reminded him of several fire emergencies on cruise ships during his six and a half years as head of the NTSB.

Following those accidents, the NTSB issued additional safety regulations governing cruise ships including sprinkler systems; smoke detectors; protected means of escape; and remote operation of fire doors. Other measures included centrally-located control systems for all fire detection systems, alarm and fire protection equipment; fire suppression systems in exhaust ducts from galley ranges; low-level emergency lighting; effective public address systems; hose ports in fire doors; and improved crew language/ communication ability to assist passengers during emergencies.

Despite such innovations, however, Hall remains worried about safety and security on cruise ships. The industry, he said, was still ignoring calls to develop a strong safety culture "that would protect the lives of the individuals that are onboard the ships despite the fact that Americans and others spend millions of dollars to visit wonderful locations like Jamaica."

Pinnock, on the other hand, has a different perspective. "Regulations are important, but when you pull from statistics out of proportion ... ; when you consider that last year over 12 million people cruised and you had less than twenty cases; when you put that in the realm of statistics, it turns out to be not significant, not to say that human life is not significant," he countered.

Jamaica Gleaner

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The US Navy used to use aluminium above the waterline and when one of their cruisers collided with an aircraft carrier and caught fire the ship burned completely above the waterline. Since the US Navy introduced its new build destroyers and aircraft carriers like the Arleigh Burke class destroyers from 1991 onwards the ships were built with an all steel hull and superstructure.

I beleive the old P&O Canberra was built of aluminium and that is one of the many reasons it was considered unsafe to put to sea after new shipping regulations around the time they retired that ship.

I am unsure that modern cruise ships are allowed to be built of aluminium. It is considered dangerous in the event of a fire.

Has anyone seen a list of what materials the ships are made of to confirm that there is actually aluminium used in any part of the building.

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Has anyone seen a list of what materials the ships are made of to confirm that there is actually aluminium used in any part of the building.

I am pretty sure that with ship building regulations it is forbidden in large passenger ships

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Sutho

Of course, the smaller passenger ferries still being delivered from builders such as Incat and Austal are structurally almost 100% aluminium. However I understand, as you say, that aluminium has gone out of favour in naval warship construction.

[ 03-27-2006: Message edited by: Indarra ]

[ 03-27-2006: Message edited by: Indarra ]

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Originally posted by Sutho:
Regarding the use of aluminium I am not so sure it is used in ship buildings these days.

The US Navy used to use aluminium above the waterline and when one of their cruisers collided with an aircraft carrier and caught fire the ship burned completely above the waterline. Since the US Navy introduced its new build destroyers and aircraft carriers like the Arleigh Burke class destroyers from 1991 onwards the ships were built with an all steel hull and superstructure.

I beleive the old P&O Canberra was built of aluminium and that is one of the many reasons it was considered unsafe to put to sea after new shipping regulations around the time they retired that ship.

I am unsure that modern cruise ships are allowed to be built of aluminium. It is considered dangerous in the event of a fire.

Has anyone seen a list of what materials the ships are made of to confirm that there is actually aluminium used in any part of the building.

I am pretty sure that with ship building regulations it is phorbidden in large passenger ships

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QE2 would be another prominent example - soldiers tried to avoid the upper Aluminium part of the superstructure just in case they were hit....

Inqueries must determine:

1. What started the fire.
Sutho's posting is quite correct and should be re-read. "All fires are small when they start" was long an adage among firefighters. I, for one, am convinced it was a cigarette. And observations, how a small cigarette could start a large fire are completely fatuous! Hell hath no fury like a smoker denied, and smoking in bed is one of the most common sources of residential and hotel fires. A cruise ship should be added to the latter category.

2. How did the fire propagate? Inside or outside? My hypothesis, combined with the photos (including the one very dramatic shot of the fire in progress) indicate that it was via the outside. I suspect that ship's company fought the fire from the interior companionways, cabin by cabin. In urban apartment fires,(as I see it, the most likely analogue) those that have open balconies tend to propagate vertically, while those which have heavy floored balconies are more likely to do so. Intense fires, however, can ignore floor separation.

However, I believe a ship with open balconies will be vulnerable in both vertical and horizontal propagation of fires. It may be noted by the pattern, I doubt that interior damage was as as dramatic. Here the sprinklers had a chance to do their work.

3: The intensity of the fire. Here a significant analysis of what materials are combustible and a what temperatures should be required, and some rule changes instituted. The way the metal was peeled and destroyed is evidence of where changes in a SOLAS-II, which I am sure will ensue, will be required.

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Cambodge wrote:
...The way the metal was peeled and destroyed is evidence of where changes in a SOLAS-II, which I am sure will ensue, will be required.

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Thank you for your input Cambodge!

One thing is for sure, a sprinkler system will be added to balconies.

******

I can picture a scenario where the firefighters came in the cabin door, hit the fire with a stream of water, and blew the fire out onto the balcony where it spread. But that would make some assumptions that I'm not sure are justified.

I wonder how long after the alarm went off that it took to get the firefighters down there. That's why I mentioned the possibility that the alarm/sprinkler was tampered with.

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Originally posted by annnthony:
Princess announced this morning that the 7 day cruise beginning 4/2 has also been cancelled with refund of cruise and air fares and a future credit of 25% toward a new booking. So, it would appear that they have aggressively scheduled repairs so that they will be sailing again in two weeks.

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In 2 weeks, i don't think so there is quite a lot of damage to the ship and 150 cabins are burned out ore heavilly damaged by smoke and water. Also the balcony are totally burned away. And maybe the damage is larger thene we cane see. Hopefully a view months.

Greetings Ben.

[ 03-27-2006: Message edited by: Maasdam ]

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Originally posted by Jerry in Sydney:
People, get over it and inform yourselves before throwing sh*t out of the mouth, Star Princess is one of the safest and berst designed ships to comply with all current and upcoming regulations. If you could get rid of the venom inside of you and not spread it out launching irresponsible comments (such as "retire the fire trap") news would be more objective and feedback more constructive, intead of simple gossip coming from maids washing dirty rags.

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Obviously you did not manage to read the majority of the comments on this topic. I nevertheless understand that you are familiar with all aspect of throwing - whatever - out of your mouth which might have lead to your decision to throw out this posting.

[ 03-27-2006: Message edited by: Ernst ]

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Jerry in Sydney wrote:
People, get over it and inform yourselves before throwing sh*t out of the mouth, Star Princess is one of the safest and berst designed ships to comply with all current and upcoming regulations. If you could get rid of the venom inside of you and not spread it out launching irresponsible comments (such as "retire the fire trap") news would be more objective and feedback more constructive, intead of simple gossip coming from maids washing dirty rags.

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Jerry mate, you always get one or two loose comments in a forum, but besides those the comments here have been mainly objective. Do you have anything constructive to add? Because we would be glad to hear it.

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Sure people are exploring possibilities of what caused it to start and spread so extensively but that is not a direct attack on Star Princess or its safety.

The fact still remains that Star Princess did actually catch fire and like it or not something caused it to catch fire and spread.

I know for a fact that many new cruise ship designs like Star Princess have to conform to regulations in building materials such as the use of fire retardent materials etc.

In my earlier post on page 5 I was blaming the build up of wind and oxygen as a major fuel for the external fire on the balconies as naturally on the outside of the ship their will be air pockets sucking and blowing wind between the balcony baricades.

Anyone who knows anything about fires is that when wind and oxygen gets a hold of flames in theses circumstances the fire and flames spread rapidly.

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(KSDK) - Creve Coeur Deputy Fire Chief Terry Scholl and five of his family members returned from vacation late Friday night and they've got quite a story to tell....

...Scholl said he is surprised more people were not killed in the fire.

"That would have been a multiple alarm fire anywhere in the country with paid, professional firefighters."

Scholl compliments the work cruise crew members did trying to fight that fire. That's high praise coming from a 35-year veteran firefighter. But he questions whether all that damage could have been caused by an unattended cigarette.

"On a building that is fully sprinklered and fully alarmed with a smoldering cigarette, the smoke will be detected before it breaks out into a full fire. Once it breaks out into a full fire in a trash can or something a sprinkler will put it out."...

Edited from: Creve Coeur Firefighter Recalls Experiences Aboard Burning Cruise Ship

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Originally posted by bulbousbow:
Can't remember if I saw the headline to the article - which is posted here - yesterday or the day before, but now that Sutho, Cambodge, etc., are asking questions I thought I should post it.

The report by this guy can only be beleived if his presumption is correct that the fire started inside a cabin.

If for argument sake a cigarette was left smoldering on a balcony and the occupant closed their cabin doors, with the wind fuelling it oxygen it could flare up and avoid being detected by the smoke detectors and also avoid being hit by fire sprinklers.

The key point in this issue is WHERE the fire originated. I beleive it originated on a balcony and not inside the ship. In that event any surrounding balconies with open doors would have sucked the fire and smoke in because of the air conditioning systems.

******

Cheers

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Pretty amazing, I'd say.

By the way, I noticed on the Grand Princess that there were video cameras mounted on the bridge wings and watching the flanks of the ship. My gut guess would be that that camera recorded the fire from the moment it was visible outside the cabin, and the cruise line knows a lot more about its progression than they are telling all of us.

[ 03-28-2006: Message edited by: mrblanche ]

It's hard to say how or why the fire spread so fast, possibly the plastic mats on the balcony decks & the furniture... don't know.

I wish I would have snapped some pictures of our stateroom when we were escorted back to try & salvage some belongings but the camera was toasted.

MIAMI, March 28 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Carnival Corporation & plc (NYSE/LSE: CCL; NYSE: CUK) announced today that in order to make permanent repairs to the cabins affected by last week's fire on the Star Princess, the ship will be taken out of service until May 15 when it will begin its European season.

In addition to the already cancelled Caribbean departures of March 26 and April 2, cruises scheduled for April 9, 16, 23 and the April 30 transatlantic cruise are being cancelled. Passengers booked on these cruises will receive a full refund of their cruise and non-refundable air charges and a future cruise credit equal to 25 percent of the cruise fare paid on these sailings.

Star Princess will sail this week from the Grand Bahama Shipyard in Freeport, where she currently is located, to the Lloyd Werft shipyard in Bremerhaven, Germany. The ship will be back in service for its first European cruise, which will depart from Copenhagen on May 15.

The company estimates that the cancelled cruises and repairs to the vessel will result in approximately a $0.04 to $0.05 reduction to the company's second quarter and 2006 full year diluted earnings per share.

FYI
Frosty4

[ 03-30-2006: Message edited by: joe at travelpage ]

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Originally posted by Frosty 4:
Maybe Greg J can fill us in as to how extensive the damage was to his stateroom as he said the camera was burned. And where it was in relation to the center of the fire area.
Also the ship is going back to Europe for repairs and won't be in service till mid May(from Events at Sea web page)
Frosty4

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our stateroom was A-342, pretty much in the "12 o'clock" position of the burned area. I have a small orange circle on this picture where our cabin was.

When we were escorted back the hall was a black, burned out mess. It looked like the balcony doors had blown in, the floor was very wet & black, everything was soot. Our passports were in the safe, and they were ok. The clothes that were in that small closet seemed ok too. Evereything in the cabin & in the hanging closet was completely soaked, covered in soot, and / or burned.

Sad really.. she is quite a pretty ship.