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» Cruise Talk   » Ocean Liners and Classic Cruise Ships   » NCL in Hot Water--no Pun Intended

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Author Topic: NCL in Hot Water--no Pun Intended
desirod7
First Class Passenger
Member # 1626

posted 12-10-2007 04:29 PM      Profile for desirod7     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
SS NORWAY

quote:
NTSB claims fatal 'copper cover-up'
WASHINGTON 30 November - The National Transportation Safety Board's report
on the Norway's 2003 boiler blast alleges that copper was used to intentionally
hide cracking and avoid repairs. Mysterious "large copper nuggets" were found near the
fracture surface on Boiler No. 23, which ruptured and killed eight crewmembers.

The NTSB noted that the boiler contained no sources of pure, highly worked
copper.
While copper could possibly have been produced by corrosion of copper materials elsewhere
in the system, "it would not have had the features exhibited by the nuggets".

The NTSB metallurgist also concluded that the nuggets were not created by chemical reactions
between excess hydrazine (a chemical employed to reduce corrosion) and copper alloys in the
system. "The only explanation for the presence of the copper is that it was introduced to mask
the crack, impede inspection and avoid necessary repairs," alleged the NTSB.


None of boiler experts interviewed by the NTSB had "ever heard of a temporary fix using copper".

Furthermore, the NTSB noted that "forcing copper into a crack might have increased the tendency
for the crack to propagate" and "would have done nothing to reduce the concentration of stress
when the boiler was pressurised".


Owner and class get Norway blame
WASHINGTON - The National Transportation Safety Board has blamed Norwegian Cruise Line and
class society Bureau Veritas for the Norway's fatal boiler blast on 25 May 2003. Eight crewmembers
were killed and 17 were injured when the header of Boiler No. 23 ruptured as a result of extensive
fatigue cracking.

According to the NTSB's final report, NCL and water chemistry subcontractors failed to adhere to
water chemistry composition limits for the boiler. The number of boiler cycles was not taken into
account during maintenance and the boiler was stressed by severe thermal transients (from heating
and cooling too quickly) and by frozen boiler support feet.

Weld repair procedures were "questionable", added the NTSB. Furthermore, BV surveyors and NCL
inspectors did not conduct appropriate non-destructive testing and BV surveyors were given "inadequate survey guidance".

The NTSB concluded: "The probable cause of the boiler rupture on the Norway was the deficient
boiler operation, maintenance, and inspection practices of NCL, which allowed material deterioration and fatigue cracking to weaken the boiler. Inadequate boiler surveys by BV
contributed to the cause of the accident." In a financial filing last week, NCL re-affirmed that the
Norway explosion "is currently subject to a criminal investigation by the US Attorney's Office through an
impaneled grand jury".


Lloyd's Register - Fairplay web links


Posts: 5727 | From: Philadelphia, Pa [home of the SS United States] | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 12-10-2007 04:50 PM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That makes disturbing reading. Thanks for sharing.
Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
DAMBROSI
First Class Passenger
Member # 100

posted 12-10-2007 05:03 PM      Profile for DAMBROSI   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It just goes to show they used quick fixes to keep the NORWAY going all this time. Quick fixes are'nt always the answer. How much longer can duct tape do the job so to speak? Well, their idea of duct tape cost them valuable crew members and doomed this vessel from the very word 'go' when they fired up the engines to her NORWAY status. Indeed, the hand in the cookie jar to keep her going; just got caught. And it's ashame to do this to a liner so grand.
Posts: 2554 | From: Florida, USA, Where the Legend SS NORWAY sailed from. Moving back to FL next yr. | Registered: May 99  |  IP: Logged
Neil - Ex P & O & PRINCESS CRUISES
First Class Passenger
Member # 5641

posted 12-10-2007 05:57 PM      Profile for Neil - Ex P & O & PRINCESS CRUISES   Author's Homepage   Email Neil - Ex P & O & PRINCESS CRUISES   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hi

In view of this report it would appear that there were major failings in maintenance on the ex ss Norway by NCL which leads one to wonder if they have a proper maintenance programme for their present ships !

Is this the reason why Star Cruises, the parent company of NCL, have prevent the ship being sold to anyone else.

I think the US Authorities should now arrange to carry out a full examination of the ship, even though she is at Alang, and if they can still find any other major problems with the boilers the Directors of Star Cruises and NCL should be charged with corperate murder if it can be proved the lack of maintenance caused the explosion which killed so many crew members.

Although some of you do not like Reubens, who runs the Australian Maritime website, he has already commented on the copper nuggets which were found !

Neil (Bob )


Posts: 2355 | From: Dunstable, Bedfordshire. 30 miles north of London | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
desirod7
First Class Passenger
Member # 1626

posted 12-10-2007 06:18 PM      Profile for desirod7     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Neil Whitmore ( Bob ):
Hi


Is this the reason why Star Cruises, the parent company of NCL, have prevent the ship being sold to anyone else.

Neil (Bob )


Why did not NCL remove all traces of copper while SSNorway was in Bremerhaven?

I would not be surprised in Colin Veitch or other key executives lose their jobs.

IMO SSNorway has suffered the most ignobile and prolonged death of any ship I know of.

She went from being Bridget Bardot to Phyllis Diller and now resembles the corpse of Norman Bates' mother


Posts: 5727 | From: Philadelphia, Pa [home of the SS United States] | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 12-10-2007 06:20 PM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Neil Whitmore ( Bob ):
I think the US Authorities should now arrange to carry out a full examination of the ship...

I though that all ships were checked periodically. No cruise line can be entirely trusted to carry out proper maintenance and sanitation etc. without regular inspections.

[ 12-10-2007: Message edited by: Malcolm @ cruisepage ]


Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
Ernst
First Class Passenger
Member # 5369

posted 12-10-2007 08:02 PM      Profile for Ernst   Author's Homepage   Email Ernst   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I assume that the ship has been extensively inspected while still in the U.S. - she very likely would not have been allowed to leave before the investigations were finished. Further investigations in the wreck in Alang should therefore not be necessary - what more should they find? For me this is already enough - actually too much. Very despicable.
Posts: 9746 | From: Eindhoven | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
lasuvidaboy
First Class Passenger
Member # 4527

posted 12-10-2007 08:25 PM      Profile for lasuvidaboy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I remember seeing video of Norway when a cruise was cancelled due to a problem w/fire sprinklers. The video was taken from the pier and you could clearly see she was not in the best shape-then. Her crew deck aft (that passengers could clearly see) was very rusty as were other portions of the hull which is rare for a cruise ship today.
Posts: 7654 | From: Hollywood Hills/L.A. | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
dougnewman
First Class Passenger
Member # 11349

posted 12-10-2007 10:55 PM      Profile for dougnewman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think it is time for a little reality check here.

The presence of the copper nuggets does indicate that at some point in the ship's career someone tried to cover up the cracks in the boilers. That's it. There's no indication, at least in the report, as to who might have done it or when. And if it had occurred before the ship was owned by Star Cruises, it is unlikely that anyone at that company would know about it. It's not even definite that it was done by NCL - after all, the ship operated for many years for CGT as well, and the accident report clearly states that the boiler cracks were a problem even early in the ship's career.

It is impossible to blame anyone in particular for the presence of the copper nuggets. The only firm that can be definitively faulted for that is Bureau Veritas, for not finding them during its boiler inspections.

The report is very clear: NCL engineers should not have shut down the boilers as quickly as they, as a matter of course, did, and according to the NTSB, BV's inspections were not thorough enough. It is a huge leap from that than to say that NCL, as it currently exists, attempted to cover anything up. Indeed, the report explicitly states that NCL, in addition to carrying out its own investigation, fully cooperated with the NTSB in its investigation. It also mentions numerous safety improvements that have been implemented by NCL, either as a result of its own investigation or at the recommendation of the NTSB.

That's not to let Star Cruises off the hook - it inherited some bad policies from the the previous NCL, and failed to change them. But there is no indication that anyone at the company today was involved in anything that caused the NORWAY accident, let alone covering it up.


Posts: 2072 | From: Long Island, NY, USA | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
PamM
First Class Passenger
Member # 2127

posted 12-11-2007 03:19 AM      Profile for PamM   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"The only explanation for the presence of the copper is that it was introduced to mask
the crack, impede inspection and avoid necessary repairs," alleged the NTSB."

The report does not even say the copper nuggets were actually used, only alleges. Surely it would be evident if so? Also why if NCL were doing this, knowing full well it was not acceptable practice, were nuggets left lying about? It seems most odd and mysterious as the NTSB say.

The problem seems to have been the cooling rates and number of cycles. After all this time one would have expected a full detailed report. It does not put BV in a good light either.

Pam


Posts: 12176 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
viking109
First Class Passenger
Member # 6280

posted 12-11-2007 05:08 AM      Profile for viking109        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Norway had many refits over the years. Had the alleged copper repairs been in place since her France days, would LLoyd Werft not been aware of this. Highly inconceiviable that they would have approved. Internal reports to NCL HQ regarding the very poor state of the boilers and the urgent need to do something about them ( in 1997 ) have been circulating on the internet for a while now.
Posts: 499 | From: southampton | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
viking109
First Class Passenger
Member # 6280

posted 12-11-2007 05:37 AM      Profile for viking109        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think I read in the fuller version of the report that there were grinding marks in the copper i.e. not something that had naturally occured. When the ship was towed out of Miami it was reported that NTSB inspectors would be flying out to Germany to further inspect the ship. Never heard if that took place or not.
Posts: 499 | From: southampton | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
dougnewman
First Class Passenger
Member # 11349

posted 12-11-2007 08:40 AM      Profile for dougnewman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by viking109:
The Norway had many refits over the years. Had the alleged copper repairs been in place since her France days, would LLoyd Werft not been aware of this. Highly inconceiviable that they would have approved.
What makes you think Lloyd Werft is better than NCL ?

These copper nuggets were very, very tiny and found only during a laboratory examination. It seems rather unlikely that anyone would have noticed them at all.

quote:
Originally posted by viking109:
Internal reports to NCL HQ regarding the very poor state of the boilers and the urgent need to do something about them ( in 1997 ) have been circulating on the internet for a while now.
If you read the report you will find that these referred to re-tubing the boilers, a process that was in fact carried out.

Posts: 2072 | From: Long Island, NY, USA | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
viking109
First Class Passenger
Member # 6280

posted 12-11-2007 09:56 AM      Profile for viking109        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well as a shipbuilder/repairer I would have thought that if indeed they knew about it then they might just be concerned about their reputation as any responsible business would.
Who are you to assume that I did not read the report, which actually suggested other options including replacing the boilers or even changing to diesel engines. And as you know from the NTSB findings the tubes were not the only problem.

Posts: 499 | From: southampton | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
dougnewman
First Class Passenger
Member # 11349

posted 12-11-2007 10:09 PM      Profile for dougnewman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by viking109:
Well as a shipbuilder/repairer I would have thought that if indeed they knew about it then they might just be concerned about their reputation as any responsible business would.
But surely NCL would be as well?

quote:
Originally posted by viking109:
Who are you to assume that I did not read the report, which actually suggested other options including replacing the boilers or even changing to diesel engines. And as you know from the NTSB findings the tubes were not the only problem.
I didn't assume that you didn't read it; I merely meant to say that if you didn't you should, and if you did, you should re-read it more closely.

While other options were indeed suggested, my reading is that new boilers or new engines were suggested as an alternative to investing money in old ones by re-tubing them. Nowhere in the report does it say that NCL was aware of any concerns other than the tubes. Of course the NTSB found other problems, but that was after the fact.

I think it is very wrong to suggest that NCL found problems and then failed to do anything about them when, in fact, it did re-tube the boilers, which was one of the options presented by NCL's own engineers, as well as the one recommended by the outside engineering firm that it consulted.


Posts: 2072 | From: Long Island, NY, USA | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
desirod7
First Class Passenger
Member # 1626

posted 12-11-2007 10:21 PM      Profile for desirod7     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dougnewman:
[QB] While other options were indeed suggested, my reading is that new boilers or new engines were suggested as an alternative to investing money in old ones by re-tubing them. Nowhere in the report does it say that NCL was aware of any concerns other than the tubes. Of course the NTSB found other problems, but that was after the fact.
QB]

At Sea Trade I found out from a marine engine manufacturer that RPF's went out to several yards for converting SSNorway to diesel.

Many parts were no longer made and had to be expensively custom fabricated.

On replacing tubes? The one that ruptured was original. Consider all of the excessive on/off cycles it is a wonder the explosion did not happen earlier.


Posts: 5727 | From: Philadelphia, Pa [home of the SS United States] | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
dougnewman
First Class Passenger
Member # 11349

posted 12-11-2007 11:10 PM      Profile for dougnewman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by desirod7:
At Sea Trade I found out from a marine engine manufacturer that RPF's went out to several yards for converting SSNorway to diesel.
Indeed - and new boilers were considered too. But this was for reasons of cost, not safety.

There is no doubt that NCL did not spend a great deal on maintaining the ship, but I see no evidence that it knowingly compromised anything considered safety-critical.


Posts: 2072 | From: Long Island, NY, USA | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
viking109
First Class Passenger
Member # 6280

posted 12-12-2007 11:40 AM      Profile for viking109        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"The inside surface of the nuggets had transverse marks associated with grinding, consistent with the copper material having been ground flush with the inner diameter of the header after being introduced into the open crack."
Must have been the copper fairies then.

Posts: 499 | From: southampton | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
dougnewman
First Class Passenger
Member # 11349

posted 12-12-2007 05:59 PM      Profile for dougnewman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by viking109:
Must have been the copper fairies then.
I am not denying that someone must have tried to repair the crack incorrectly with copper - but this does not mean it was done by NCL, and even if it was, it does not mean it was done with the permission of the home office, and even if it was, it does not mean it was done with the permission of anyone who is at NCL now or, indeed, was at the time of the accident!

This could have been done by any number of people or companies at any time within the ship's life, and given the tiny nature of these copper nuggets, it is unlikely that before this investigation, anyone other than whoever did it and/or approved it would have any idea it had been done.


Posts: 2072 | From: Long Island, NY, USA | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged

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