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» Cruise Talk   » Ocean Liners and Classic Cruise Ships   » Michelangelo - Raffaello (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Michelangelo - Raffaello
Ocean Liners
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posted 08-01-2003 10:47 AM      Profile for Ocean Liners     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here are some pics to share with U & rd77




[ 08-01-2003: Message edited by: Ocean Liners ]


Posts: 4502 | From: Japan | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
RuthPerk
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Member # 1609

posted 08-01-2003 02:15 PM      Profile for RuthPerk   Email RuthPerk   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks, Ocean Liners, for posting that! I was around 5 when I sailed on the Raffaello in 1973, and that's how I remember her looking.

[ 08-01-2003: Message edited by: RuthPerk ]


Posts: 329 | From: Victor, NY, USA | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
Onno
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Member # 3071

posted 08-01-2003 02:28 PM      Profile for Onno   Author's Homepage   Email Onno   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Great pictures!

Thanks for posting. In those days advertising agencies knew that ships are more important to portray in a brochure. These days you get (if you're lucky) a fuzzy ship image some where in the back of a beach photo. Nowadays it is all about selling abstract feelings which can be quite disappointing while in the old days brochures sold the ship and thus pure facts which are less miss leading.

Ruth are you one of the little girls playing, on the bottom picture!

Onno

[ 08-01-2003: Message edited by: Onno ]


Posts: 3583 | From: the Netherlands (Berenbotje ging uit varen...) | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
RuthPerk
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posted 08-01-2003 04:42 PM      Profile for RuthPerk   Email RuthPerk   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Onno:
[QB
Ruth are you one of the little girls playing, on the bottom picture!

[ 08-01-2003: Message edited by: Onno ][/QB]


Nope - not me! They aren't cute enough to be me!


Posts: 329 | From: Victor, NY, USA | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
kaiser
First Class Passenger
Member # 3370

posted 08-01-2003 08:41 PM      Profile for kaiser   Email kaiser   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
When I see pictures of these beautiful ships, I feel nothing but saddness. I remember seeing them (not in person, unfortunately, but in a book) as a child and remember thinking that these were ships of the future. The way liners would be built for the next 100 years (ok, so I wasn't a very bright child ).

But I was captivated by them and they are a good part of the reason why I'm nuts about passenger liners (the other part was that I sailed to and from Europe on the Queen Mary as a 3 year old).

Anyways, they both had such short lives and sad ends. I still think that they are amongst the most beautiful vessels ever conceived.

Regards, Kaiser


Posts: 212 | From: Vancouver, B.C. | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Commodore
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Member # 1575

posted 08-01-2003 11:51 PM      Profile for Commodore     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes kaiser, I'd have to agree they were the most beautiful liners around, or at least amongst the most beautiful. Thre funnels though unique were quite beautiful. They had everything going for them, they were a good size, and new enough to make it today, like the Oceanic among others. Too bad everything didn't work out for them. I hope the Augustus gets saved and brought back to Italy. Hopefully she will, and when I go there I will without a doubt visit her if she does. I heard rumours she is to become a museum ship in Genoa. Let's just hope she does, because she is the last of what was once the great fleet of Italian Lines.
Posts: 1106 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
sslewis
First Class Passenger
Member # 3649

posted 08-05-2003 09:19 AM      Profile for sslewis   Author's Homepage   Email sslewis   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think like you too!
They were so distinctive in profile, and an architectural marvel that many cruise ships still imitate.
In fact, the lack of major architectural breakthrough shows a lot in todays designs.
Pity the lifeboats were not a la Oceanic!
And, not so many portholes in the hull..
A real modeller feast, if skilled enough for the funnels!
Now, what happened to Raffaello wreck in Bushire?
ssLewis

Posts: 2513 | From: Shipspotting Solent shores when weather allows.... | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Onno
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Member # 3071

posted 08-05-2003 09:26 AM      Profile for Onno   Author's Homepage   Email Onno   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What a mazes me about these two ships (next to the interesting funnels), is the way they played around with proportions. If you imagined her with only the forward funnel then her general profile is way too long especially the forward superstructure and bow would seem to be out of proportion. But the second funnel and it’s position makes up for it an balances the entire profile!

Best, Onno

[ 08-05-2003: Message edited by: Onno ]


Posts: 3583 | From: the Netherlands (Berenbotje ging uit varen...) | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ocean Liners
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posted 08-05-2003 09:31 AM      Profile for Ocean Liners     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here is a link for refer to Michelangelo and Raffaello

web page


Posts: 4502 | From: Japan | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
sslewis
First Class Passenger
Member # 3649

posted 08-07-2003 01:36 PM      Profile for sslewis   Author's Homepage   Email sslewis   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Onno,
Wow!
Now try put the forward funnel at the place of the stern one?
And any Home line Livery?
ssLewis

Posts: 2513 | From: Shipspotting Solent shores when weather allows.... | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
petede
First Class Passenger
Member # 3459

posted 08-07-2003 01:52 PM      Profile for petede     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was lucky enough to have sailed on both of these beauties. I have fond memories of these ships. I sailed on the Michelangelo just after being repaired after being hit be the freak wave. I think that they had some of the best looking profiles of any ships made. I miss these ships, as they were a big part of my childhood and of my summer in Italy.
Posts: 146 | From: New York, USA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Onno
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Member # 3071

posted 08-09-2003 06:44 PM      Profile for Onno   Author's Homepage   Email Onno   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They indeed have great looking profiles. You can see that the profiles where well thought trough. For a long time general design stated ship profiles and funnel(s) needed to be centred, other wise the ship would look unbalanced (in most cases dummy funnels where added). These sisters prove that ship profiles don’t always need to be centred in order to be balanced correctly.

Here is a elevation graphic I made of the Michelangelo, it shows nicely how funnels and superstructure where arranged to get the distinct profile.

Petede, you are indeed lucky to have sailed both ships (to bad they are no longer around) where the interiors and onboard art of both ships the same, or did they have distinct interiors and unique art for each ship?

Best, Onno


Posts: 3583 | From: the Netherlands (Berenbotje ging uit varen...) | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
desirod7
First Class Passenger
Member # 1626

posted 08-10-2003 12:55 AM      Profile for desirod7     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hi Onno,

Picture #3 works the best if the Mike and Ralph were to have one funnel.

quote:
Originally posted by Onno:
But the second funnel and it’s position makes up for it an balances the entire profile!

Best, Onno

[ 08-05-2003: Message edited by: Onno ]



Posts: 5727 | From: Philadelphia, Pa [home of the SS United States] | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
sslewis
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Member # 3649

posted 08-14-2003 10:36 AM      Profile for sslewis   Author's Homepage   Email sslewis   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
With all these posts, I dreamed that the Roman Queens were still floating....
How about painting Raf or Mich in their would be owners liveries?
Home Lines, NCL, Carnival?
ssLewis, dreaming of wonderful ships

Posts: 2513 | From: Shipspotting Solent shores when weather allows.... | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
feargus
First Class Passenger
Member # 3982

posted 08-14-2003 03:31 PM      Profile for feargus   Email feargus   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
we are almost lucky they are not still around, premier may have had them, RED HULLS! not to mention the cheap interiors and nascar bars
Posts: 249 | From: Halifax,Canada / Abu Dhabi, UAE | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Onno
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Member # 3071

posted 08-15-2003 07:07 PM      Profile for Onno   Author's Homepage   Email Onno   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I just realized that the M. and R. have hardly any portholes in their hulls. What was the reason for this, where their outside cabins without views, or crew cabins. You should expect that if there where cabins they should at least have portholes. Most ships have portholes all the way down to the water line but M. and R. don’t. Can someone shed some light on why this was don.

Best, Onno


Posts: 3583 | From: the Netherlands (Berenbotje ging uit varen...) | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
cabinclass
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Member # 3600

posted 08-18-2003 10:22 AM      Profile for cabinclass     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I, too, was lucky enough to sail in both these beauties. New York to Genoa in June 1972 on the Michelangelo in Cabin Class, and thus my user name here on these boards. Spent my Junior college year in Italy, and sailed home in August 1973 on the Raffaello, tourist class for $150, a special "youth fare" the Italian Line instituted that year to increase traffic. Unfortunately, it didn't save the Italian Line, but an amazing bargain for 8 days!
Incidently, I learned immediately on the Michelangelo that the easiest way to jump class was via the chapel, which had equal access for all 3 classes...

cabinclass


Posts: 11 | From: Arizona | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
billee
First Class Passenger
Member # 1133

posted 08-18-2003 12:36 PM      Profile for billee   Author's Homepage   Email billee   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I believe the lack of portholes was strickly for aethetics. It was one of their major drawbacks, the lack of outside cabins. Also, the disparity between a super luxurious 1st class, a nice cabin class and then an austere tourist class made many of their cabins & public rooms useless on cruises.
Two of the most beautiful ships ever built.

Posts: 159 | From: Baltimore, MD USA | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
sslewis
First Class Passenger
Member # 3649

posted 08-18-2003 12:50 PM      Profile for sslewis   Author's Homepage   Email sslewis   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Onno,
I read on another board that the portholes could be added due to stress and other strange things.
Of course, it is forgetting that many portholess cargoships were successfully converted into liners.
The best example being mvDunnottar Castle/Victoria1960, ssMedia/Flavia, Axel x/Costa Allegra/Marina.
Never heard that these converted vessels suffered from any kind of problems.
In my opinion, the hulls were adapted from a naval vessel, as in Queens Mary/Elizabeth, France, United States. The portholes were simply missing due to safety restrictions and very bad experiences with the Queens at war, when they nearly capsized whilst dealing with large waves.
Queen Mary nearly did before starring in the Poseidon movie, and shew only came back to an even keel thanks to her helmsman!
ssLewis

Posts: 2513 | From: Shipspotting Solent shores when weather allows.... | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
sslewis
First Class Passenger
Member # 3649

posted 08-18-2003 12:57 PM      Profile for sslewis   Author's Homepage   Email sslewis   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just to add that although Michelangelo was hit by a rogue wave in 1966, there was never any real danger of sinking as in the Queen Mary.
The unfortunate thing about Mike was that Media made ripples about the subject.
Had the ship turned back-many liners did ie Liberte in 1959- it would have been forgotten.
But there were many important people onboard and Italia was the disaster line after Doria.
I think I would have felt very safe on the beautiful Michelangelo.
Have a look at www.Project Michelangelo and try the last link with Webshot. You will see how big the wave was! What a cameraman too!
ssLewis

Posts: 2513 | From: Shipspotting Solent shores when weather allows.... | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Onno
First Class Passenger
Member # 3071

posted 08-19-2003 04:09 PM      Profile for Onno   Author's Homepage   Email Onno   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Integrity of their hulls could be an explanation but I still wonder if that is the only reason because round portholes (as I read some where) are the shape that least effects the hull integrity. That is also the reason why the Hamburg/Maxim Gorkiy was designed with all round off corners in all her windows and portholes. Apparently sharp corners create spots that are more tens than others.

If Aesthetics was the reason then why not delete all port holes and create a smooth hull?

The safety reason could be the most plausible reason. Most ships that sunk after capsizing did so because the lower portholes where open and let in more water then would be the case if they where closed off. Italia Line did after all had the Andrea Doria tragedy.

Best, Onno


Posts: 3583 | From: the Netherlands (Berenbotje ging uit varen...) | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
sslewis
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Member # 3649

posted 08-20-2003 08:35 AM      Profile for sslewis   Author's Homepage   Email sslewis   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Onno,
you now understand why the hull of Michelangelo/Raffaello are perfect for a beginners modeller! No fussy portholes to worry about.
Well, still have to cope with those funnels!
Zuiderzam class offer an excellent funnel and remarquably similar in design!......?
ssLewis

Posts: 2513 | From: Shipspotting Solent shores when weather allows.... | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
desirod7
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Member # 1626

posted 08-25-2003 12:23 PM      Profile for desirod7     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

Here is my vision of the Mike and Ralph as a hybrid liner-cruise ship. Had that been done originally, they may have had the long succesful career that the Oceanic, Galelleo/Marconi twins, RotterdamV and Canberra have seen. All these ships are in the 40,000 ton range.

Instead of piling balcony decks on top, I moved the 2 top bridge decks up one level and sandwiched in a balcony deck. The deck above the boat deck with cabins and a open promenade is a natural to put in balconies. Like the QE2 they are flush with the superstructure, not cantilevered.

With the extra deck the forward superstructure would be too massive. Promenade deck is extended 100' forward, allowing an obsevation deck. The forward superstructure is terraced for a sense of movement and to break up the excessive mass. Cargo hold cover is recessed.

As a cruiseship, I would leave both funnels since they play off each other and with one funnel the ship loses personality. The aft bay would be diesel electric propulsion and the forward bay would be for the MEP like the Norway.

The balcony deck ends at funnel #1 since at funnel#2 there is not enough real estate for appropriate size cabins. The fan systems would make the area way too noisy.

At the aft I added wind screens for the pool area

As usual, the redesign is to be as invisible as possible and keep the svelte character of the ship.

Thank you Onno for an excellent original to work from

[ 08-25-2003: Message edited by: desirod7 ]


Posts: 5727 | From: Philadelphia, Pa [home of the SS United States] | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Waynaro
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Member # 3484

posted 08-25-2003 12:57 PM      Profile for Waynaro   Email Waynaro   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Great work Desirod. I see a little of PACIFIC SKY, OCEANBREEZE and the union castle's tier front.
Posts: 6108 | From: Vallejo,CA : California Maritime Academy!!! | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
desirod7
First Class Passenger
Member # 1626

posted 08-27-2003 10:14 AM      Profile for desirod7     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thank you Kietaro.

Upon more thought, it shows that class division on ships does more harm than good. Topic was debated before.


Posts: 5727 | From: Philadelphia, Pa [home of the SS United States] | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged

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