To get thinks started I have put together the following list...

1969 QUEEN ELIZABETH 2
1962 FRANCE
1960 CANBERRA
1952 UNITED STATES
1936 QUEEN MARY
1935 NORMANDIE
1927 ÎLE DE FRANCE
1914 AQUITANIA
1914 VATERLAND
1912 TITANIC
1907 MAURETANIA
1897 KAISER WILHELM DER GROSSE
1888 CITY OF NEW YORK
1860 GREAT EASTERN
1838 GREAT WESTERN

I would like feedback on 1) What other notable ocean liners should be on the list and 2) Which of these may not deserve to be on the list.

Remember, we are talking Ocean Liners - not cruise ships.

Thanks in advance,

[ 07-02-2002: Message edited by: Britanis ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barryboat:
...rather than Canberra... I have always thought that the Canberra was an average ship with an uninteresting history.

---

Canberra is a very radical ship, in appearance, engineering, life boat location, and cabin layout. Her interior design is conservative. Except for lack of private facilities, and not enough elevators, she worked well as a cruise ship. It was no one thing, but how all the innovations worked together.

The Rotterdam V to be included,
not for engineering. Her powerplant and hull design were typical of the time. It is her interior design and layout of the spaces, and daring exterior design. She works extremely well all around.

The Bremen/Europa of 1930 should be included too.
She was a precurser to the Normandie.
--------
The Georgic and Britannic of 1930ish, they were the largest ships of the time to have diesel propulsion.

She may not have been built with the sole intent of liner voyages, but she certainly must be considered innovative as far as passenger shipping is concerned

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barryboat:
I agree...Olympic should be on the list rather than Titanic. Olympic also went through the process of being transformed from coal to fuel oil. Leviathan should be on list rather than Vaterland, because of the unbelieveable work that went into her transformation. Southern Cross (1955) should be on this list...rather than Canberra... I have always thought that the Canberra was an average ship with an uninteresting history. She was poorly constructed. (cement had to be poured into her to offset her uncalculated excessive boyancy) She may have been charming but I was unimpressed when I saw her. Southern Cross was the first to be designed and built with aft engines and funnel.

---

Mauri/Lusitania-all turbine drive, hull design advances, first to be tank tested during design phase.

Vaterland/Leviathan- ugly ship, but the first with split uptake, bi level lifeboats to be copied for Rotterdam V. It was a result of the visionary Albert Ballin

Georgic/BritannicII- first use of Diesel engine in a 'large' ship.

Empress of Britain & Ile de France-
No new ground in technology, but revolutionary new interior design. This is what the passengers see and experience.

Bremen/Europa-one of the first to use the bulbous bow. Clean superstructure, and new Art Deco interiors.

Normandie- Bremen/Europa and Ile De France blazed trails for Normandie. N took the best from the 3 of them. She embodied the best of design, and engineering.

Refreshing to do away with the bomabstic robber baron castle interiors of the Edwardian/Kaiser era.

SS United States- Speed, safety, aesthetics, maintained beautiful interiors w/o excess decoration and w/o use of woods.

Independance/Constitution-
Beautiful exterior and interior by Henry Dreyfuss. Integration of counter stern in modern liner.

Rotterdam V:-) - Magnificent interior design; floating art museum, equalization of classes, bold exterior.

Canberra:-) - Revolutionary exterior design,and advanced propulsion system. Nice interior design, although broke little new ground.

Honorable mention: Good ships that were refinements of the previous best, but broke no new ground. Sheer size and speed is not a factor.

Aquitania
Brittanic {corrected mistakes of her sisters]
Columbus
Rex
Conte Di Savoia
Queen Mary
Queen Elizabeth
Niew Amsterdam
SS America
Gulio Cesare-Andrea Doria-Christoforo Columbo
SS France
Gallileo/Marconi
Rafaello/Michelangelo
QE2
Pacific/Island Princess
Royal Viking Star/Sea/Sky

Hmmm... Tough call...

Desirod, Island/Sea Venture and the Royal Vikings don't belong - they were exclusive cruise ships.

I agree that Caronia of 1948 should be included. Contrary to popular belief, she was designed as a dual-purpose ship for both cruises and crossings.

Several Holland America ships of the 1950s are quite worthy. Rotterdam V should replace Canberra IMHO - her contributions to design were far more important than Canberra.

Maasdam or Ryndam (I forget which was first) should be on the list as the first ships to be designed with tourist class taking up most of the ship.

Great Britain should indeed be on the list for the reasons gohaze stated.

France of 1962 should perhaps be replaced by either Michelagnelo or Rafaello - whichever was second as that ship would be the last one ever designed with liner service, and only liner service, in mind. France might be left on too if there is room because she is the last of the ships of state to have survived.

Queen Mary broke no new ground yet she was the most successful of her era. She deserves a place along with Normandie AND either Bremen or Europa.

Personally I think a list of maybe twenty ships would be better than fifteen - there are just too many that cannot be left out.

The only ship on the list that I think should be removed was Canberra. It is only her popularity as a cruise ship that saved her from complete obscurity.

quote:

---

Originally posted by cruiseny:
Hello,

Several Holland America ships of the 1950s are quite worthy. Rotterdam V should replace Canberra IMHO - her contributions to design were far more important than Canberra.

The only ship on the list that I think should be removed was Canberra. It is only her popularity as a cruise ship that saved her from complete obscurity.

Happy Cruising,
Cruiseny

---

Disagree big time
I have sailed the Canberra, know her well, and the Rotterdam V.

Canberra was an extraordinary liner/cruiseship.
She was not conventional at all. Many of her radical features I previously mentioned are commonplace on the typical newbuild. The features were copied, but none of the grace.

As Rotterbrandt said: It is how the ship and features came together as a whole.

The website www.sscanberra.com illustrates in great detail her engineering and design philosophy, process, and execution. You still have to be on her to totally understand. They did goof on the hull calculations.

She was no cookie cutter liner, like the Union Castle ships, Olympia, Empress of BritainII/England, Flandre, Monarch of Bermuda or the Lurline sisters.

They scrapped the wrong ship. It should have been the 1960 Oriana.

quote:

---

Originally posted by desirod6:
You still have to be on her to totally understand. They did goof on the hull calculations.

---

I cannot deny that I would probably have much more affection for her had I actually sailed the ship.

quote:

---

Originally posted by desirod6:
They scrapped the wrong ship. It should have been the 1960 Oriana.

---

True. That was an exceptionally ugly vessel.

Some of the "catalyst" ships making the transition from ocean liner to cruise ship might include the ROTTERDAM V, which could be configured for cruising or crossings. Also, the OCEANIC of Home Lines is considered by many to be the first purpose built cruise ship. Of course the initial plan was to have her sail crossings as well.

I'm sure others could add to the list of transitional ships (ocean liner and cruise ship all in one), but the two I mentioned come to mind rather quickly.

quote:

---

Originally posted by PamM:
Can I add in Orsova, 1954, 1st liner with an all-welded hull and first without a mast

---

Another beautiful and historically significant ship that went to the breakers prematurely and is largely forgotten- sad.

Cruiseny brought up the fact that Hamburg/Maksim Gorky/Maxim Gorki is about the same age as the QE2, does anyone know the actual date her maiden voyage commenced?

[ 07-05-2002: Message edited by: Britanis ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Britanis:
Cruiseny brought up the fact that Hamburg/Maksim Gorky/Maxim Gorki is about the same age as the QE2, does anyone know the actual date her maiden voyage commenced?

---

Hi Britanis

The Hamburg (which is the same age as QE2 also from 1969) was meant as a passenger liner but as far as I know she never actually served as a liner. She immediately started cruising. I have a German advertisement from 1969 where the state of the art Hamburg is introduced and her fist European cruises. Here is the list:

Black Sea cruise – 12 October to 26 October 1969
Mediterranean cruise – 27 October to 10 November 1969
Western Africa cruise – 11 November to 4 December 1969

So I guess her maiden voyage started 12 October 1969, I placed the ad in the photo gallery I don’t know if you can read German but it’s actually a nice article telling a lot about cruising in the sixties.

Best, Onno
Haburg article in the folder pasenger ships

[ 07-06-2002: Message edited by: Onno ]

GREAT EASTERN
Brunel’s a head of his time vision and the tragic life she led as a floating billboard and cable laying ship. And a ship with sails paddle wheels and funnels what more would you want.

TITANIC
Or at least the Olympic class of ships again a turning point in design here the more cleaner and smarter look was introduced that the Mauretania did not have. And of course the largest liner in the world thing.

NORMANDIE
also ahead for its time and again this ship introduced a new stile in ship appearances finally the traditional Harland and Wolff style of ships was broken.

QUEEN MARY
One of the most loved liners and this ship is I think the archetype of the liners, if you ask someone to draw or describe a ship the outcome will probably be something that looks like Queen Mary.

CANBERRA
A distinct profile whit the funnel and bridge so far at he back of the ship also a new visual style.

UNITED STATES
She has a typical American style created by those huge funnels and she is the last liner to get the blue ribbon.

QE2
Also quit revolutionary in design and the last liner to survive the airplane and by doing this became a legend.

QUEEN MARY 2
Needs no explanation.

I like your "Top Ten" list, every ship on it deserves to be there, no question about it. It's just so hard to make one of those lists whitout leaving some ships out.

[ 07-06-2002: Message edited by: Britanis ]