quote:

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Originally posted by Dolphins:
Will there be enough lifeboats for the people in steerage?

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As my failing memory serves me (i believe that Barryboat may have had some personal experience with this incident, as well, and remember it better than i recall):

We were in "steerage" when the QE2 ran aground off of Martha's Vineyard many years ago . Passengers were evacuated based on cabin category. We were supposed to be taken by tender or ferry to Newport Rhode Island where we would be met by a coach and transported to a specially chartered Amtrak train to take us back to New York where we would be put up for the night.

Grill passengers were evacuated in the afternoon; met in Newport by Cunard folks under a marquee with food; whisked off to a waiting Amtrak and put up in some hotel in New York City for the night.

Being in steerage, we were evacuated at 2 in the morning by ferry; met by a school bus which took us on some long journey to some town where we met an Amtrak train that was freezing cold (my wife, two young kids and self had only minimum clothing because luggage had to be packed hours earlier for off loading, and it was in August and i didn't consider how cold we might become). We got into New York the next morning in time to catch our train home. Cunard would have provided us with a free sightseeing trip if we had chosen to stay, but were too exhausted and just wanted to get home.

Depending on what portion of this roundtrip transatlantic crossing combined with New England/Canada cruise you purchased, affected how much credit Cunard offered in compensation.

So...."class" does sometimes have its advantages, such as when it comes to lifeboats.

P.S. Did anyone say that White Star and Cunard are related ?!?

Colt...that was a pretty crummy day for everyone I think. I had heard it was a mess on the ship all day while the staff was sorting out the details of putting people ashore and dealing with the luggage. So where were you when the ship hit bottom? I was on deck 5 in my cabin forward. I was nearly knocked off my feet by the initial jolt. I could hear the gravel scraping on the hull below. I am also convinced that the ship ran aground and was stuck for much of the evening, contrary to what the official report said. The official report said that the ship hit bottom and then continued to drift away from that spot. I saw the officers trying desperately to wiggle the QE2 off of what ever it was stuck on. The propellers were creating quite a wash aft, and yet we were NOT moving. Were were stuck for a while and I am sure of that.

Here's a photo I took while leaving the QE2 on the first shuttle to Newport.

quote:

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Originally posted by colt:
Barryboat–I wonder if our paths did cross on that particular cruise:

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As we evacuated the ship around 2 in the morning, my wife was carrying our young daughter who was asleep, and our young son was clinging to the hem of her dress as we made our way down the stairs to the ferry. Someone (from Cunard?) offered to help us get the children down the stairs and on to the ferry, but my wife (who has that stiff upper lip the British are known for)indicated that we could manage.

That trip was quite fateful, as we had booked it fairly early; yet had our booking cancelled mysteriously by Cunard for some reason that was never fully clarified. After the cancellation, and trying to understand what had happened, and finally getting re-booked , I told our travel agent that maybe someone was trying to tell us something: perhaps, we shouldn't be going on this cruise, after all. (Sometimes we don't listen hard enough to what we are being told...) Later, I had gotten further spooked when i almost fell off the roof of my garage after removing a big tree limb that had fallen on it during a fierce rain/wind storm. I thought to my self: that's all i need to do (after all the trouble i had gone to to book this cruise) is to break a leg before we leave for our holiday.

We ended up with a cabin on 4 deck (either 4006 or 4009?). I was in the cabin alone when the most chilling shudder to the ship occurred. (I believe this was the night after Kris Kristofferson's performance where he indicated some unease about being on a ship rocking somewhere in the ocean, and i wondered what he must be thinking once he understood what had happened to the ship). I sensed that something big had happened, and after checking our nautical position on the tv screen (the science student in me?), i ran to some upper deck to locate my wife and kids, who were participating in some sort of dance contest as part of the QE2's youth program. On my way up, i ran into other passengers and inquired if they knew what had happened, and some people indicated they hadn't been aware of anything untoward happening. It seemed to me that we were getting more info from our cabin television sets than Cunard was making available to us.

The next day the ship had noticeably started to list as we took on water. In the early hours of that morning, we noticed Coast Guard (??) personnel outside our port hole trying to establish some sort of containment for whatever might or did spill. People were trying to figure out the extent of damage to the ship, but i didn't sense any real panic.

At some point that day, we ran out of potable water, i believe, and food was getting pretty low. One particular fellow on the wait staff in the Lido was getting pretty tipsy and making somewhat of a spectacle of himself. (Not sure whether he was worried about sinking, or that this accident was going to affect his home/shoreleave, or if what had happened was just an excuse to party....

All in all, we never felt in any real danger, and what memories it has given us, and what a story to share with others over the years.

P.S. On our Amtrak trip back home from New York, our train lost power for a few minutes for some unknown reason, but we finally made it home. (After arriving home, our travel agent called to say that he had heard about what had happened to the ship, and remembered our conversation about considering not going on this particular cruise.

P.P.S. Moral of this story: You might want to check with me before you plan another cruise to make sure that i'm not going to be onboard and jinx your holiday.

Happy cruising (and safe seas) to one and all!

That's odd that you had these pre-cruise warnings. The accident was a complete surprise to me. I was on the first boat to bring passengers ashore, and I stayed ashore until the last tender deposited passengers on the dock in Newport.

I also don't recall the ship listing at all the next morning. The ship did take on water, but only in places where the ship normally stores water and fuel. The ship was in NO danger of sinking. There was 400 feet of dents, scrapes and gashes on the bottom of the hull. I even overheard over one of the radios from the divers that there was a boulder pushed up into the hull. The ship also had a crack along the beam that was about an inch wide. The damage was pretty bad. Unfortunately I wasn't able to stick around after the ship was dry-docked in Boston, otherwise I would have made every effort to get down there to take pictures of the damage. I have only seen one photo of the damaged hull, because Cunard was very strict about releasing photos of the damage. (I guess they thought it would be unlady-like to show QE2's bottom ripped up)

What did you think of Kris Kristofferson's performance during the cruise? He was quite rude and cocky back stage... he was on drugs or something, and I personally thought he was a terrible performer. He wasn't on the ship when it ran aground by the way.

I thought the cruise was pretty nice other than the grounding on the last night. During the trans-Atlantic before the Canada cruise, did you ever recall playing Bingo in the Grand Lounge....chances are you would have seen me hosting the Bingo. Do you recall the country western night? I was the one with the leather wip. I also sang "I love a Rainy Night" in the Lido late at night.[/QB][/QUOTE]

I kind of like KK's gravelly voice. I can imagine him to be broody and rude. I believe we saw him one afternoon outside of the pavilion. Never spoke to him. How (at what port) did he get off the ship?

Was Elton John ever onboard any transatlantic you did? As i once (not on this trip) was sure i saw him, and even spoke to this person who esembled EJ, and he said no he wasn't.

We did make country western night/day? Sorry, i don't recall your leather w(h)ip routine, and missed your singing. I do recall some DJ from a country western station in NYC being involved.

We really enjoyed the cruise as well. Sorry we missed Bar Harbor, but enjoyed our greeting in St. Johns.

And the lifeboats priorities enrages me so much!!!

As for the QE2, I think her lifeboats should get replaced with some nice, shiny orange and white hulled new lifeboats.

And get rid of the class system, and just have everyone for every lounge.

Cunard and its ilk are not aimed at the upper end of the class system, rather they are intended to appeal to a market niche that views class as something one puts on the Gold card. They appeal to snobbery, a quality that is usually quite absent in the mileu to which the nouveau riche aspire.

Although both ends of the social spectrum have much in common, the amorphous mass that now make up the burgeoning middle classes tend to be avoided by the wary aristocrat. Accordingly one is unlikely to encounter their kind at sea, unless it be on some obscure tramp steamer.

A passenger was checking in at the Airline desk and for no apparent reason was giving the poor girl hell.

Once he moved on, the next passenger made comment to her about the bad behaviour that she had to put up with and be unable to do anything about it.

quote:

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Originally posted by topgun:

The girl said, "dont worry about it sir. That man is checked in for Detroit. Unfortunately, his baggage is going to Frankfurt Germany'"

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quote:

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Originally posted by Green:

AMEN TO THAT!

The 'class' system is alive and well in all countries - some admit to it - others are in denial!

Maybe I am wrong, but I think that's why there are different cruise lines to appeal to different tastes and budgets. If you want impeccable service and five-star cuisine and decor, that is what Seabourn, Silversea and Crystal are for...right? If you wanna wear jeans to dinner and eat hot dogs in "colorful" surroundings, isn't that what Carnival and Airtours (?) are for? RCI, NCL, P&O, HAL and others probably fall somewhere in between.
This way there is no need for the different economic groups to overlap...what is all the fuss about? Jesus Christ....(do you think he'd sail with Celebrity or HAL or Carnival?)

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Excellent Rex, Silverseas rarely calls on St. Thomas, just like the Carnival Destiny will routinely sail to the Lofoten Islands.

Joe Lunchbucket will love the Lofoten's, like bored out of his skull.

Sally Swamp Yankee would be aghast of the St. Thomas Honky-tonk.

[ 09-14-2002: Message edited by: ROTTERBRANDT ]

I for one don't see why there shouldn't be a small "ship within a ship" for top-end passengers. That might mean a seperate, more intimate dining room, a concierge lounge, butler service, stocked refrigerator, etc...

Many higher-end hotels (e.g. Ritz-Carlton) have "club" floors with a special lounge and upgraded amenities, etc...

However I don't like the idea of having a completely seperate "first class" etc. with entirely seperate deck areas, lounges, and so on. This sort of thing faded away in the 1960s, though Cunard maintained the "class" names through the mid 1990s, it was basically a similar case to the way it is now, basically a restaurant linked to a cabin category.

So is a seperate formal dining room, a "club lounge" etc. OK for a higher price? Sure. But a real "class system" - that isn't necessary. The whole thing should be done in a rather subtle manner, not in the blatant way of the old ships, where second-class people were called just that, gated off, etc. Discreet placards should do the trick, and passengers ignoring them would just be asked to leave (politely).

Most notable is that if you can afford a higher "class", then you can go. The only discrimination is the amount of money paid. Pay more, and you get more - that makes perfect sense to me.

So I suppose the answer is, "it depends" !

When I book a ship, regardless of accommodations reserved, I expect to be treated in the same manner as everyone else on the ship. I for one, don't get my "kicks" out of being treated better than all the other "low-life's" on the ship if I book a suite. I don't want to feel superior than the rest of my fellow passengers, but equal. I'm not against a variety of different cabin and suite choices, and even some nicer amenities for the suites, but I don't believe in separate lounges and restaurants exclusively for suite passengers. Frankly, I think most are just a novelty (such as the Neptune Lounge on HAL), and serve no real purpose except to make the suite passengers feel "special", or at the very least to make them feel they are getting some type of value for all that extra money they paid.

For me personally, rather than spend the money to book a top suite on QE2 or Carnival, I would rather sail in a standard cabin on Silversea or Seabourn. If I am going to spend a premium amount of money, I will receive a better value by booking a ship that caters exclusively to the high-end market. The entire ship will be a "first-class" environment, everyone will share the same excellent amenities, and most all the passengers will be on the same class level. Also, these ships are all-inclusive, where as I still have to pay for drinks, etc. if I book a top suite on a premium/mass-market line. It's surprising that price is not that different between the two (Silversea and a top suite on a premium line) - and Silversea or Seabourn is always the better value.

Another point is that I would rather take 3-4 cruises a year in a standard cabin, rather than 1 or 2 in a suite. If I am loyal to a ship or line and sail with them many times, why should I be treated sub-par or have my access limited to areas of the ship over a suite passenger? The suite passenger may be a first time cruiser on the line and never return (a once in a lifetime deal). Personally, I think my business as a repeat passenger should hold just as much, if not more value to the cruise line than the possible one-time suite passenger.

Likewise, I am just as comfortable booking an inside cabin on Carnival. I pretty much know I will be treated the same as someone in much higher priced accommodations (which for the most part, is pretty good). Booking a suite on Carnival doesn't make sense to me, since there is really no added value except for the larger space. If I truly want a first class environment, like I said, I would book Silversea or Seabourn where I know the entire ship, from food to service personal, is geared to the high-end passenger and their expectations.

Maybe this is one of the reasons QE2 never appealed to me. I don't want to be asked "what dining room are you in", and be summed up the minute I answer "Mauritania". Fact is, if I can afford to cruise on Silversea and also take 3-5 cruises a year, I can afford a suite on QE2 (but don't choose to). Funny thing is, most Silversea passengers would never consider the QE2. Too large to offer the kind of personal detail they are used to (even in a suite). I don't think QM2 will be as segragated as QE2, but if she turns out to be, my May 2004 sailing will be my one and only! In the meantime, I will also be sailing on QE2 in December (in a Deck 5 upper/lower I might add) to really see what all the fuss is about. I have toured her many times and was never that impressed, but I know sailing on her can be completely different.

I hope my comments are somewhat understandable. It was a little hard to put them down in words, and of course when you start talking about a "class-system", the topic can get a little touchy!

My motivation is purely space. Certainly the availability of an exclusive lounge or dining room has no bearing on my cabin selection. Again, if I want these things I will book on a line like Silversea who are experts at such things. I do enjoy the extra space that deluxe cabins and suites offer, even on the mainstream lines. Some of them (especially on Celebrity) are decorated beautifully, and I enjoy the surroundings. The extra things like a special lounge or private dining room seem a little cheesy to me.

QM2 will offer Queens and Princess Grill dining rooms just as on QE2. The availability of these dining rooms and lounges are not an incentive for me to book into a suite. Frankly, the main dining room looks much more spectacular and I would probably want to dine in there anyway. Besides, if I want an alternative choice, there is always the Todd English restaurant. On QE2, I think the disparity between dining areas is a little more pronounced... although I will discovery for myself if this is the case.

But I fear that some of those desiring stronger class distinctions on specific ships are not just looking for the amenities - they also want an envious audience nearby to impress with their exclusivity.

posted 08-27-2001 10:49 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Rex:
Maybe I am wrong, but I think that's why there are different cruise lines to appeal to different tastes and budgets. If you want impeccable service and five-star cuisine and decor, that is what Seabourn, Silversea and Crystal are for...right? If you wanna wear jeans to dinner and eat hot dogs in "colorful" surroundings, isn't that what Carnival and Airtours (?) are for? RCI, NCL, P&O, HAL and others probably fall somewhere in between.

This way there is no need for the different economic groups to overlap...what is all the fuss about? Jesus Christ....(do you think he'd sail with Celebrity or HAL or Carnival?)
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AMEN TO THAT!

The 'class' system is alive and well in all countries - some admit to it - others are in denial!
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My reply to Rex original post was -

"AMEN TO THAT!

The 'class' system is alive and well in all countries - some admit to it - others are in denial! "

Kenneth Lay
Bernard Ebbers
John Rigas
Martha Stewart
Leona Helmsley
Al Dunlap
and
Dennis Kozlowski

I suppose my above post may not have exactly portrayed my feelings on this matter, basically what I am saying is that I don't really care whether the people in the suites get a lounge, concierge, etc...

A restaurant is rather "iffy", I'm not crazy about the idea when I really think about it though.

Certainly I don't appreciate people who care about things like that...

A funny story has come to me, several years ago we were staying at a Ritz-Carlton (in the cheapest room) and our room wasn't ready on time, so we were upgraded to a suite on the "club floor"... That was quite an experience BTW... Actually I must say I prefer being down in the (slightly) less-palatial digs with the "little people"... We did not quite know how to handle the butler, who even offered assistance unpacking (we declined) without being one bit taken aback at the conspicuouls lack of grandeur in our aged Samsonite ...

Anyhow, back to the story - my dad and I were in the elevator, with a snobby old dowager (you know the type), who was looking rather intently down at me, like "what does a little rat like that belong here" - when my father turned the key required to push the button four our "special" floor... A rather conspicuous process... And let me tell you, it was like seeing a wind-up doll be... Well... Wound up! All of a sudden this stiff old girl was trying to be our best friend...

May 15, 2005
Class in America: Shadowy Lines That Still Divide
By JANNY SCOTT and DAVID LEONHARDT
There was a time when Americans thought they understood class. The upper crust vacationed in Europe and worshiped an Episcopal God. The middle class drove Ford Fairlanes, settled the San Fernando Valley and enlisted as company men. The working class belonged to the A.F.L.-C.I.O., voted Democratic and did not take cruises to the Caribbean.

Today, the country has gone a long way toward an appearance of classlessness. Americans of all sorts are awash in luxuries that would have dazzled their grandparents. Social diversity has erased many of the old markers. It has become harder to read people's status in the clothes they wear, the cars they drive, the votes they cast, the god they worship, the color of their skin. The contours of class have blurred; some say they have disappeared.

One surprising finding about mobility is that it is not higher in the United States than in Britain or France. It is lower here than in Canada and some Scandinavian countries but not as low as in developing countries like Brazil, where escape from poverty is so difficult that the lower class is all but frozen in place.

Those comparisons may seem hard to believe. Britain and France had hereditary nobilities; Britain still has a queen. The founding document of the United States proclaims all men to be created equal. The American economy has also grown more quickly than Europe's in recent decades, leaving an impression of boundless opportunity.

"Being born in the elite in the U.S. gives you a constellation of privileges that very few people in the world have ever experienced," Professor Levine said. "Being born poor in the U.S. gives you disadvantages unlike anything in Western Europe and Japan and Canada."

Why does it appear that class is fading as a force in American life?

For one thing, it is harder to read position in possessions. Factories in China and elsewhere churn out picture-taking cellphones and other luxuries that are now affordable to almost everyone. Federal deregulation has done the same for plane tickets and long-distance phone calls. Banks, more confident about measuring risk, now extend credit to low-income families, so that owning a home or driving a new car is no longer evidence that someone is middle class.

The economic changes making material goods cheaper have forced businesses to seek out new opportunities so that they now market to groups they once ignored. Cruise ships, years ago a symbol of the high life, have become the ocean-going equivalent of the Jersey Shore. BMW produces a cheaper model with the same insignia. Martha Stewart sells chenille jacquard drapery and scallop-embossed ceramic dinnerware at Kmart.

"The level of material comfort in this country is numbing," said Paul Bellew, executive director for market and industry analysis at General Motors. "You can make a case that the upper half lives as well as the upper 5 percent did 50 years ago."

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Originally posted by desirod7:
One surprising finding about mobility is that it is not higher in the United States than in Britain or France.

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Furthermore, it's not like they're sectioning off 1/3 of the ship for First Class, another 1/3 for Second Class and 1/3 for Third Class; doing something like that just would fly.. err, float... today. Instead, Cunard sections off restaurants, one lounge, and a part of a deck. Aside from the dining, all passengers of each class have access to the same exact public rooms, bathrooms, and entertainment.

As far as I'm concerned, if they can keep this system going, more power to them.

[ 05-15-2005: Message edited by: JohnEZ ]

quote:

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Originally posted by mec1:
Funny how no-one objects to the class system on planes.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Malcolm @ cruisepage:
Everyone should get a seat with enough room to stretch your legs.

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You are welcome to one if you are prepared to pay a bit more for that seat As long as people want to fly for next to nothing and are prepared to be jammed together like sardines for hours, then the airlines will provide the 'experience'. If we were all prepared to pay a much higher sum for a seat, then we'd all get more comfort. The flying public only have themselves to blame, and I am one of them.

But a flight is only for a few hours, a cruise is for days. I have no objection to the 'class' systems on Cunard. HAL, NCL, Princess, and the rest all offer perks to suite occupants, some have special louges, concierge services and so on... I don't think is any different to Cunard's way, yet I see comment from people occasionally, saying they refuse to sail Cunard because of the 'class' distinction. They are all the same to me. I someone is prepared to pay more, they should get more! That's life all over the world, be it an hotel, cruise, air flight or even train.