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» Cruise Talk   » Ocean Liners and Classic Cruise Ships   » What do you think about a class system? (Page 2)

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Author Topic: What do you think about a class system?
PC
First Class Passenger
Member # 1191

posted 04-16-2001 11:59 PM      Profile for PC   Email PC   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ascendancy, I'm not sure in what context your comment "Get a life" means, but I can tell you, nothing beats a Japanese "onsen or ofuro" (hot springs or public bath) shared by both sexes. If you want to see a visual image of what it might be like, send your email address to <pcmar@netvigator.com>. I don't think I should post that image in this forum, though an amenity like that would be a welcome addition to cruise ships. Maybe the new cruise ship being organized in Japan will have this amenity.

Anyone else want to see, send me your email address. The image is adult content, but not so bad or offensive - just a slice of life out here in the East. And then perhaps, you may understand why telling me to "Get a life" may sound somehow odd.


Posts: 102 | From: Hong Kong, SAR | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Paddy
First Class Passenger
Member # 357

posted 04-17-2001 10:44 AM      Profile for Paddy   Email Paddy   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nathan is right, to an extent. First of all, although it is very tempting, lets not turn this into a Barryboat witch-hunt ( ) Its just like a frequentl flier scheme with an airline - the more money u spend with them the better treatment you will receive. I don't think those of us back in steerage would particularly want to sit in their exclusive lounge and try and muscle in on their pretensions. And if everyone is getting the same good food (are they Cunard???) and service, there is no problem. Equally, as long as whole sections of the ship aren't off limits to us nimble paupers eg the better gym, the nicest swimming pool, should we really be concerned?

At the end of the day, ask yourself the same question when flying - back in economy with most airlines we are getting decent food, choice of entertainment, friendly service and comfortable enough seats. In business class they get folding beds, slightly better food, and nowadays the same service (when most of the seats on the aircrft are business class, the crew are stretched to do everything for EVERYONE!). And up in first class are those in very comfortable seats and fresh food and, what, six more movie channels? But at what price? On a New York London flight, lets say an economy return ticket is £500, a business is £2000, and a First class is £4000. If you have that money to waste fire ahead, if u don't want to though, just get more for your money!!!

Paddy.


Posts: 763 | From: Belfast, Ireland | Registered: Aug 99  |  IP: Logged
Ascendancy
First Class Passenger
Member # 840

posted 04-17-2001 02:39 PM      Profile for Ascendancy   Email Ascendancy   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nathan.
Who's denouncing nice-a-ties? I'm talking about restricting certain passenger portions of the ship.
If a butler is your fancy, go for it.
I like those things too!

A cruise ship is limited in the way of space.
If you take away passenger access to passenger areas of the ship, why book the ship? That is my point.

The one thing that irritates me more is someone who misunderstands the point and
initiates name calling!


Posts: 354 | From: Aurora, CO | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
nathan
First Class Passenger
Member # 720

posted 04-17-2001 03:56 PM      Profile for nathan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ascendency, if your comment about name-calling is directed at me, I would suggest you re-examine your own posts, particularly your rather rude comment to PC. I am simply coming to the defense of Barryboat, who I think has been unnecesarily disparaged. I certainly don't think that I have started any name-calling here. Rather, I was trying to get this post back up to a sophisticated discussion.

Posts: 534 | From: Knoxville, Tennessee | Registered: Aug 99  |  IP: Logged
Barryboat
First Class Passenger
Member # 33

posted 04-17-2001 06:21 PM      Profile for Barryboat   Author's Homepage   Email Barryboat   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Since when does a person book the entire ship when they book a cruise? Yes the ships are short on space, but a liner is different, especially the massive QM2 where there plenty of space for everyone! (Even a "First-Class only" section)

Thanks Nathan and Paddy for understanding what I'm trying to say. The concept has obviously been made into a more complex issue than I originally expected.


Posts: 1851 | From: Bloomington, Minnesota (Home to the Mall of America) | Registered: Mar 99  |  IP: Logged
PC
First Class Passenger
Member # 1191

posted 04-17-2001 11:44 PM      Profile for PC   Email PC   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Paddy, on the QE 2, the daily menus are the same in all 5 restaurants - the Queen's, Princess and Britannia Grills, Caronia and Mauretania Restaurants. The raw material for the food comes from the same stock, but the Grills have more personal service, and the cutlery, glassware, and cups/plates are probably from the more well known brands. Mauretania's dishware is custom made in Norway. In the Grills, some dishes may be cooked by the waiter or captain at the table, whereas in the Caronia/Mauretania, all dishes are cooked in the kitchen. The waiters and waitresses in the Grills may be British and other more cultured Europeans, whereas the wait staff in Mauretania tend to come from Philippines/India/Russia/other East European countries, and a smattering of Brits, like from Scotland or Wales, whose speech sound nothing like English spoken at Oxford/Cambridge Universities or from The City. But, the waitresses in the Mauretania are really good looking, especially those from Hungary, Czech, Poland, Russia, etc. And friendly.

It's much livlier in Mauretania - there's always someone with a birthday, or some couple with an anniversary. In the Queen's Grill, most of the diners are dead in their soup. Man, you couldn't pay me to eat in the Grill.


Posts: 102 | From: Hong Kong, SAR | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
desirod7
First Class Passenger
Member # 1626

posted 04-18-2001 08:51 AM      Profile for desirod7     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PC:

It's much livlier in Mauretania - there's always someone with a birthday, or some couple with an anniversary. In the Queen's Grill, most of the diners are dead in their soup. Man, you couldn't pay me to eat in the Grill.

On the Queen Mary 1, In her day many first class passengers would go to the 2nd class lounge.
[leather walls, quite opulent depite moniker]
since it was more lively.

I SEE NO REASON WHY SOMEONE WITH A GRADE 'Z' CABIN ON THE QE2 PAY A SUPPLEMENT AND WEAR THE MONKEY SUIT REQUIRED TO EAT IN THE PRINCESS GRILL IF THEY WANT.

Let people book the cabins they want, and pay extra if they want a special lounge, priority tendering, or embark-debarkation

Class=not your money or learned behavior by reading Emily Post, but how you treat other people.


Posts: 5727 | From: Philadelphia, Pa [home of the SS United States] | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Barryboat
First Class Passenger
Member # 33

posted 04-18-2001 07:14 PM      Profile for Barryboat   Author's Homepage   Email Barryboat   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
desirod6....we agree on something!!

"Class=not your money or learned behavior by reading Emily Post, but how you treat other people."


Posts: 1851 | From: Bloomington, Minnesota (Home to the Mall of America) | Registered: Mar 99  |  IP: Logged
Cambodge
First Class Passenger
Member # 906

posted 04-19-2001 10:54 AM      Profile for Cambodge   Email Cambodge   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The "Class" sword has two edges.

1. "First" used to mean that you had better accomodations, food, lounges and similar than "Second."

2. It also meant that you had exclusive use of same. I can recall on "Le France" when the deck steward - and yes we had such so that we did not have to 'claim and maintain' "free" deck chairs - told me the following. "On this ship when you and your lovely wife are "en smoking" (eg evening clothes) you will be happy. On "QE2" you may sit in the lounge with [and he made an expressive face] a "hippie en t-shirt" sitting with you" He went on to say that QE2 did not keep the inflitration from second class from 1st class facilities.

Snobbish - yes; accurate - also yes.

Reason for tale, if you pay good money for exclusivity you should get same. We did, and we were glad we did.

[This message has been edited by Cambodge (edited 04-19-2001).]


Posts: 2149 | From: St. Michaels MD USA , the town that fooled the British! | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Barryboat
First Class Passenger
Member # 33

posted 04-25-2001 06:11 PM      Profile for Barryboat   Author's Homepage   Email Barryboat   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thumbs up on exclusive (upscale) areas of the ship.
Posts: 1851 | From: Bloomington, Minnesota (Home to the Mall of America) | Registered: Mar 99  |  IP: Logged
Ascendancy
First Class Passenger
Member # 840

posted 04-26-2001 02:46 PM      Profile for Ascendancy   Email Ascendancy   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Barryboat just answer me one question.
What area of the ship can a person in a suite
go (excluding his own cabin for crying out loud), that someone of the 2nd deck couldn't?
What ship are you talking about?

Posts: 354 | From: Aurora, CO | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Barryboat
First Class Passenger
Member # 33

posted 04-26-2001 07:24 PM      Profile for Barryboat   Author's Homepage   Email Barryboat   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ascendancy,

I'm talking about the original question in this thread which is "What do you think about the Class system". The QE2 has a Class system, and I guess Gerry is curious to know what we think, because he's working on the QM2 project. I came up with the idea of a completely separate "Ultra-First Class", that has it's own separate lounges and dining rooms and bars, etc.


Posts: 1851 | From: Bloomington, Minnesota (Home to the Mall of America) | Registered: Mar 99  |  IP: Logged
CTrail
First Class Passenger
Member # 64

posted 04-26-2001 09:19 PM      Profile for CTrail     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
One thing that is becoming very evident throughout this thread is that there seems to be no middle ground. The comments are very polarized. You are either for it 100% or agin'it 100%. Sort o' like politics and religion.

Haveawonderfulcruize!

Peter


Posts: 332 | From: Kitchener, ON Canada | Registered: Apr 99  |  IP: Logged
gohaze
First Class Passenger
Member # 586

posted 04-26-2001 09:32 PM      Profile for gohaze   Email gohaze   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hi...I think people forgot the original question that Gerry posed. Keep in mind that he's with new construction with Carnival in Miami and very involved with the QM2 project.
That is not going to be a cookie cutter cruise ship - she's going to be very high profile LINER which is a totally different thing.
As such, yes they need the different classes or whatever you want to call them, just to make the whole thing viable.
You're talking "apples & oranges" if you try and compare it to an ordinary cruise ship.
....peter

Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged
bubbles
First Class Passenger
Member # 1415

posted 04-28-2001 04:46 AM      Profile for bubbles   Email bubbles   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not sure whether I should venture into this minefield but if the discussion is being centered around what we would like from future ship builds I will give my twopennyworth. I think I have always made my views clear on this subject on previous discussions but I will state them again. I do not like a class system on ships, or anywhere else. I have no problem with people paying for superior accommodation, if available and that being linked to certain restaurants or flowers in their suite etc. as that would make practical sense. However, if lounges were segregated then I would have big problems and would not want to be present in that situation. Where would it stop, separate entertainment! I agree with previous popsters that some types of entertainment seem to naturally attract different types of people and I am all for that natural selection, however, if I was dressed up and wanting to go into a particular bar on a ship on which I was a passenger and I was refused entry I would be mortified. My own preference for a ship in the first place determines the sort of product I would like to purchase and that is as it should be. When I was a student I wanted to mix with students and I sought out student accommodation and tourist trails, now I am looking for something else I know where to find the product I am looking for, there are certain ships which would not appeal to me, not because of the people who would be there but because of the overall product they provide. This does not mean that I would storm the gents as I am well brought up enough to observe social conventions and I think our society is all the better for those but to limit certain, previously public areas, on ships to particular passengers I could not tolerate that and I think eventually passengers would avoid such a product anyway. Those who did not would be welcome to it as far as I am concerned. Fortunately, we do live in a free society and this is one of those choices we are free to make. Roll on the Caribbean
Posts: 133 | From: England | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Cambodge
First Class Passenger
Member # 906

posted 04-28-2001 02:21 PM      Profile for Cambodge   Email Cambodge   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by bubbles:
[QB].....I do not like a class system on ships, or anywhere else. I have no problem with people paying for superior accommodation, if available and that being linked to certain restaurant....This is one of those choices we are free to make... /QB]

As I said in a previous posting, class not only gives you access to specific venues, but also keeps out the jeans and dirty t-shirt folks who "demand" the rights of access, but are not willing to accomodate by dressing accordingly. Upscale resturants have, and enforce, dress codes, but by what I have seen recently (and the views expressed here) ships do not. Class allocation is one way to save us from the slobs!!

And, CTRail may remember the glorious days of long-distance train travelin North America. "Going Pullman" meant an exclusive lounge, usually an exclusive dining car, and positioning of your sleeper or parlor car in the train so you could walk to the waiting room without walking by multi-unit hot and thundering diesels (and in the good old days an even hotter steam locomotives!) plus the lengths of multiple baggage and express cars!

Exclusive privileges? Maybe!

[ 04-28-2001: Message edited by: Cambodge ]


Posts: 2149 | From: St. Michaels MD USA , the town that fooled the British! | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
CTrail
First Class Passenger
Member # 64

posted 04-28-2001 10:23 PM      Profile for CTrail     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Weren't those a thing of beauty!!!

Landlockedcruiseships.

Peter


Posts: 332 | From: Kitchener, ON Canada | Registered: Apr 99  |  IP: Logged
Green
First Class Passenger
Member # 171

posted 04-29-2001 10:48 PM      Profile for Green     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I can no longer resist adding my 10¢ worth.
This topic has brought out many
opinions, and that's good but there seems to be confusion between OCEAN LINERS and CRUISE SHIPS. As someone said, 'you can't compare apples with oranges'.
There's nothing wrong with having a choice of formal or casual dining on a
Liner or a Cruise ship. On our QE2 Crossing we were not at all impressed by
being allowed to 'dine', whenever we pleased (between 7.30 and 10.00pm I believe), at an assigned table. Sometimes we were on our own or joined, in mid meal by our single traveller and sometimes, by coffee time, another couple arrived. Dining room service was the worst we've ever experienced - how could it have been otherwise with people coming and going - a table for 2 maybe? Only at the fixed-time breakfast on our New York arrival day did we eat with our 5 assigned companions.
Ours was not a last minute booking . We requested and had a "C" Cat. cabin (read
closet with window) that I'd rate only 3rd class. Cabin selection was not permitted
on this 'special Cunard Crossing deal' - Cabin number was advised about three weeks prior to departure - after checking the deck plans we immediately requested a change of location - denied - "Sorry,the ship is fully booked". I might add that menu differences between Caronia and Mauritania were minimal. The 'deal' came out at close to CA$500.00 per person per day. We'll not sail the QE2 again. Our recent HAL Hawaii cruise - 15 days - cost considerably less - last minute accommodation was a spacious outside cabin, food and service were excellent and we had 2nd seating
as requested.
The number of people who can afford OCEAN LINER and/or CRUISE suite and balcony accommodation is much smaller than the number that can afford to travel in other categories - reflected in the number of suites, mini-suites and balcony cabins built into today's ships. What's wrong with that? You want
more space and perks - you pay accordingly.
Back to the original post -
On a LINER, e.g. QM2, I see no reason to allow all passengers access to all parts of the ship - if you can afford to pay top price, seems to me you are entitled to as many perks and 'private areas' as possible.
Considering a Liner's size,percentage-wise, little space would be designated for use by only 'top echelon' travellers.
We pay to belong to a Country Club and enjoy our 'enclave'. We certainly don't
want people wandering in off the street for a coke and a 'burger. Maybe we are 'Snobs' - so be it!

A CRUISE ship is a different story - all passengers should have access
to all amenities. So-called 'perks' afforded to suite or balcony cabin cruisers are quite minimal. On most CRUISE ships, regardless of category chosen, you have access to the entire ship - it's your choice to dress up or eat at the Lido - and if you're feeling 'flush' you can (for a small extra charge on some Lines) eat in the AlternateDining Room - think about it - the suite and balcony pax paid more than you chose to -the Butler (whom most of us wouldn't know how to handle), an in-suite bar, a bathrobe and a few other bits and pieces - are they really so very important?
THERE WILL ALWAYS BE CLASS DISTINCTION. Like Barryboat said, in part, it's totally unrealistic to expect that all people should live in a utopia where no one has any more wealth than the next person. It's just not going to happen - and
nor should it! I agree too with his statement QUOTE people who complain
about the "Class" system are simply jealous and don't seem to want to accept
that there are others out there who simply have more money than most of us.
I'm comfortable with my "Class". I'm secure with my economic level...I'd certainly like to have more money END QUOTE - with all of that I agree -
I too would enjoy having more money, but at this stage in life, short of winning
a lottery, it's unlikely that I'll get it.
I feel that many of Barryboat's comments have been distorted and misunderstood. Much of what he has said makes good sense to me. - one more point - 'Class distinction' is not limited to the UK - the difference is - the UK admits to it - North Americans don't.


Posts: 2913 | From: Markham, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jul 99  |  IP: Logged
bubbles
First Class Passenger
Member # 1415

posted 04-30-2001 11:02 AM      Profile for bubbles   Email bubbles   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Green:

We pay to belong to a Country Club and enjoy our 'enclave'. We certainly don't
want people wandering in off the street for a coke and a 'burger. Maybe we are 'Snobs' - so be it!

I like your analogy BUT if you were a member of the Country Club wouldn't you expect to use the facilities there?

I agree too with his statement QUOTE people who complain about the "Class" system are simply jealous and don't seem to want to accept that there are others out there who simply have more money than most of us.

I don't feel that 'green' (sorry for the pun!) but neither do I want to be told Sorry Ma'm you can't go past that gate to the nicer area of the ship/liner as you are steerage! Stay below.

As I said I don't have a problem with people paying for superior accommodation or something more in the food line but when it comes to lounge bars etc being segregated I am not keen at all. Part of the excitement of cruising is exploring the ship and seeing all that it has to offer. There are always selected functions on board e.g. club members are invited to separate receptions but the lounges are then open to everyone without restriction at any other time. On board you would be a paying passenger, albeit paying different rates. These artificial demarkations really should be a thing of the past. If you wish to sail on a 6* or a 3* vessel whether cruise ship or liner (still not sure of the distinction) once you have paid your fare you should be entitled to use all public facilities on that vessel and there should not be no-go areas where you have to use a separate staircase or be rejected by someone at entry. Lets face it a bottom grade cabin on Crystal is much higher than a bottom grade cabin on Princess so the premium is there already.


Posts: 133 | From: England | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
desirod7
First Class Passenger
Member # 1626

posted 08-26-2001 09:56 PM      Profile for desirod7     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Only a travel agent wants a class system for high mark up high comission sales
Posts: 5727 | From: Philadelphia, Pa [home of the SS United States] | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
colt
First Class Passenger
Member # 1215

posted 08-27-2001 01:06 PM      Profile for colt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There are certain things that money can buy, depending on how you define class. Money doesn't necessarily buy one good manners, for instance. AND one is correct that money does not equal class; however, on most ships that i have read about, if you have the money you get a better "class (=category)" of cabin, dining experience, embarkation/disembarkation services, etc. Having more money doesn't make you a classier person, or automatically confer class; however, it does buy access to places, and people, and things that those without money/or those who choose not to spend their money in a particular way cannot intrude upon.

Doesn't the "class" segregation occur on a ship when one chooses what category of cabin to book on a ship (either one chooses to pay a premium for a better cabin with more perks--i.e., window, balcony, butler/concierge, robe, stocked fridge, etc. or chooses not to)? Or once a pax is onboard, that pax might choose to pay extra to use a certain spa, or for special treatments in the spa, or for a special restaurant to dine in for the evening? Isn't this a type of segregation by money, or by "class," if one chooses to define class as a dichotomy between those with or without money?

Someone questioned whether, if one were a member of a country club, wouldn't one expect to use the facilities there? Actually, there are country clubs where people with "full" memberships have access to all the clubs' facilities, including golf course, pool, dining room, etc, and those without full memberships may be limited in their access to the greens, or to the pool, etc.

I think that class distinctions purchased on a cruise ship are fine, as long as one knows what one is getting (or not getting for their money.) That way a person can be a fully informed customer, and choose to buy or not.


Posts: 293 | From: Lisbon, Maryland, USA | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Rex
First Class Passenger
Member # 1113

posted 08-27-2001 03:23 PM      Profile for Rex     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maybe I am wrong, but I think that's why there are different cruise lines to appeal to different tastes and budgets. If you want impeccable service and five-star cuisine and decor, that is what Seabourn, Silversea and Crystal are for...right? If you wanna wear jeans to dinner and eat hot dogs in "colorful" surroundings, isn't that what Carnival and Airtours (?) are for? RCI, NCL, P&O, HAL and others probably fall somewhere in between.

This way there is no need for the different economic groups to overlap...what is all the fuss about? Jesus Christ....(do you think he'd sail with Celebrity or HAL or Carnival?)


Posts: 1413 | From: Philadelphia PA, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Green
First Class Passenger
Member # 171

posted 08-27-2001 10:49 PM      Profile for Green     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rex:
Maybe I am wrong, but I think that's why there are different cruise lines to appeal to different tastes and budgets. If you want impeccable service and five-star cuisine and decor, that is what Seabourn, Silversea and Crystal are for...right? If you wanna wear jeans to dinner and eat hot dogs in "colorful" surroundings, isn't that what Carnival and Airtours (?) are for? RCI, NCL, P&O, HAL and others probably fall somewhere in between.

This way there is no need for the different economic groups to overlap...what is all the fuss about? Jesus Christ....(do you think he'd sail with Celebrity or HAL or Carnival?)


AMEN TO THAT!

The 'class' system is alive and well in all countries - some admit to it - others are in denial!


Posts: 2913 | From: Markham, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jul 99  |  IP: Logged
Barryboat
First Class Passenger
Member # 33

posted 08-27-2001 11:36 PM      Profile for Barryboat   Author's Homepage   Email Barryboat   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Jesus I know personally, would love a cruise! He enjoyed being at sea....even when it was rough. When it got too rough for his buddies...He commanded the sea to be calm and the sea calmed. Interesting considering this...but let's say Jesus was on the Carnival Paradise and the ocean was rough, the Paradise was being tossed around, people were getting sick, things onboard were breaking, the cruise director and a mob of people went to him complaining...with the whole group watching, he steps over to the windows to look out over the rough ocean, He stretches out his hands and calms the sea...do you think those people would believe that He was God?

I think Jesus would be comfortable on a Carnival Cruise, a Celebrity Cruise, a Holland America cruise, and even a Seabourn cruise. He loves people...doesn't matter what economic level people are in. Jesus would calm the sea for those on a Carnival Cruise and even for those on the QE2 or on a Windjammer cruise. His agenda is simple...bring as many people with him into His Kingdom as he can. Problem is... many won't make it into His kingdom, because they choose NOT to follow Him.

I'm Not ashamed to say that I know for sure (without any doubt) that I will live in eternity with Jesus when I die. How many out there on TravelPage can say the same? Seriously...I'm not trying to be condescending or smart or anything....I know there are other believers out there....can I see a show of hands?


Posts: 1851 | From: Bloomington, Minnesota (Home to the Mall of America) | Registered: Mar 99  |  IP: Logged
Dolphins
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posted 08-28-2001 06:16 PM      Profile for Dolphins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Will there be enough lifeboats for the people in steerage?
Posts: 324 | From: Commack, New York | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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