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quote:Originally posted by Malcolm @ cruisepage:At 128,000 gt that is not so much smaller than Epic at approx 150,000gt? Maybe 20K gt makes all of the differance?
At 128,000 gt that is not so much smaller than Epic at approx 150,000gt? Maybe 20K gt makes all of the differance?
For me, it's not so much about the size but the design. Overall EPIC is not that great of a design. If she was a great design, we would probably see more of her being built.
Everyone thought OASIS was going to be a nightmare for passengers just because of her size. As it turns out, this wasn't the case at all because of all the thought that went into her design.
EPIC just seems like a bunch of people got into a room and said "lets put this here and that there" but didn't really analyze passenger flow, etc. It's also interesting that no one really seems to know, and no one is taking credit for her design. It's just not talked about.
Regarding slots at the shipyard, it's interesting NCL is so intent on using Meyer Werft when other shipyards like STX (Finland & France) and even Fincantieri could start building right now. They are very hungry for business. I'm glad they are going with Meyer Werft because of the quality this shipyard is known for. I would also imagine there are various logistical and design reasons behind the decision.
Ernie
quote:Originally posted by eroller: EPIC just seems like a bunch of people got into a room and said "lets put this here and that there" but didn't really analyze passenger flow, etc.
I wonder what changes in the design were made which allegedly caused some friction between NCL and STX?
I wonder why they dropped the second F3 given the high penalty paid? The fact that they are ordering two more big ships suggests that it was not fears about 'capacity'.
quote:Originally posted by Malcolm @ cruisepage:I wonder what changes in the design were made which allegedly caused some friction between NCL and STX?I wonder why they dropped the second F3 given the high penalty paid? The fact that they are ordering two more big ships suggests that it was not fears about 'capacity'.
Don't know. All we can do is speculate.
I think it was a multitude of reasons to be honest.
1. The shipyard was not as cooperative with NCL as they had hoped to incorporate changes, so NCL didn't want to go through with the second newbuild "as is".
2. The overall cost of these ships. EPIC was not a cheap ship to build (about the same as OASIS).
3. Lack of confidence in the overall ship design, which was approved by a previous management team.
4. Lack of confidence in the market. We were entering a major recession and no one was certain just how low it would go.
5. Pressure from owners Star and Apollo to ax the second newbuild.
6. Overall displeasure with STX France
Those are just some of the reasons that may have spurred NCL to cancel the sister to EPIC, at substantial expense.
No so much - just an odd ship the size of Pacific Princess 1 !!!
quote:Originally posted by eroller:Don't know. All we can do is speculate.I think it was a multitude of reasons to be honest. 1. The shipyard was not as cooperative with NCL as they had hoped to incorporate changes, so NCL didn't want to go through with the second newbuild "as is". 2. The overall cost of these ships. EPIC was not a cheap ship to build (about the same as OASIS).3. Lack of confidence in the overall ship design, which was approved by a previous management team.4. Lack of confidence in the market. We were entering a major recession and no one was certain just how low it would go. 5. Pressure from owners Star and Apollo to ax the second newbuild.6. Overall displeasure with STX FranceThose are just some of the reasons that may have spurred NCL to cancel the sister to EPIC, at substantial expense.Ernie
Was she not to have been built without a main dining room, without a theatre etc. Apollo insisted that she had to have these elements afterall thus the changes ? Would also explain why they are so small.
quote:Originally posted by mike sa:Was she not to have been built without a main dining room, without a theatre etc. Apollo insisted that she had to have these elements afterall thus the changes ? Would also explain why they are so small.
Yes, I believe no buffet restaurant either. It would be fascinating to see the original plans for EPIC, prior to all the changes. Perhaps EPIC would have been better prior to the changes? I suppose we shall never know. What we know now is the ship has many venues which are simply too small for the capacity of the ship.
quote:Originally posted by mike sa:Was she not to have been built without a main dining room, without a theatre etc.
Was she not to have been built without a main dining room, without a theatre etc.
Some of those quotes may have been just marketing? NCL still claim that Epic does not have a main dining room or main theatre.
Yes they said she would not have a 'buffet' either, but I guess they were going to call it 'something' else.
quote:Originally posted by lasuvidaboy:I am surprised that Epic cost approx the same as Oasis.
She should not have done! A big chunk of the cost (100 million Euros?) was compensation for cancelling the second F3.
How stupid, given that they might build three more ships within a few years.
[ 09-08-2010: Message edited by: Malcolm @ cruisepage ]
quote:Originally posted by Malcolm @ cruisepage: How stupid, given that they might build three more ships within a few years.
Shows how desperate they were not to build another "Epic".
For those who have defended Epic...the fact that NCL is not building another, and that future newbuilds will not repeat many of Epic's features, is evidence enough that the ship was poorly designed.
quote:Originally posted by Frosty 4:No main dining venue or buffet- What?? Unheard of on a cruise ship. [...] F4
Why not? It's actually overdue to do away with the by far too large main dinning rooms. Don't reject that idea just because NCL is not doing it in a perfect manner.
For e.g. a more upscale ship a large restaurant is actually inappropriate. Spreading it out to several smaller venues might be a way to enhance the experience.
On a low budget ship having several restaurants and no 'main' dining room might be the perfect way to hide the fact that there are actually more than two seatings.
quote:Originally posted by Frosty 4:[...]I can see that people will probbaly be going ashore to try the local cuisine. Of course we do that already.F4
I wish there were more cruise ships offering itineraries where one can conveniently eat ashore (also for dinner). This would be adequate for luxury ships as well as for very low budget ships where I actually could imagine to do away with including the food in the cruise fare if there really is an option to eat ashore all the time (I know that Easy Cruise failed - again, I would not reject this idea just because of that).
[ 09-09-2010: Message edited by: Ernst ]
quote:Originally posted by Frosty 4:No main dining venue or buffet- What?? Unheard of on a cruise ship. I can see in the future that they will be charging for meals at the (ALL) various places they do have.
Many cruise ships do not have a main dining room. Some have several and you are assigned any one of them.
There are cruise ships too where all meals are charged for.
Pam
The idea of paying a very low fare, but they paying for every meal and your entertainment etc. would definitely appeal to some people.
I can here some people saying "My normal cruise fare includes the shows, but I never go, under this system I don't go and I don't pay".
[ 09-09-2010: Message edited by: Malcolm @ cruisepage ]
The F3 as suspected was hatched during an NCL management upheaval where 10 people had a hand in it and all got their way. The Oasis was based on Kvaerner's well thought out concept presented at Sea Trade in 05. RCL bought it, took the skeleton, put organs inside and skin on the outside.
Myself? I would love the Oasis on a 14 day repo cruise with no ports in between. It would take that long to do everything, crossers are a different breed of passengers than cruisers.
[ 09-24-2010: Message edited by: desirod7 ]
quote:Originally posted by desirod7:Ernie is correct about Lloyd Werft vs Allstom or Fincantieri. The NCL Dawn of LW and the QM2 of Allstom were done by the same interior design firm: Tillberg. [...][ 09-24-2010: Message edited by: desirod7 ]
This is confusing: Norwegian Dawn was built at Meyer not Lloyd Werft (Lloyd Werft is usually not building cruise ships). Ships designed by Tilberg were built at many different yards and the fittings and suppliers used are not necessarily correlated to the shipyard where the ship is actually built.
Presently, most cruise ships are indeed built by STX Europe (in France or Finland) Meyer Werft or Fincantieri but the 800 lb gorilla in the room are of course other ship yards that try to get involved in building cruise ships. As you know, in the not too distant past cruise ships were built in Japan and there are of course Korea or China who are expected to start building cruise ships sooner or later. All that might not happen 'tomorrow' but it's sort of overdue, so it's hardly just a match between the three established shipbuilders in Europe.
[ 09-24-2010: Message edited by: Ernst ]
On the QM2 and NCL Dawn, the difference I notice is the quality of the floor, ceiling, panel joinery, plum and fit of built in hardware.
QM2 aint bad, but the NCL Dawn seemed better screwed together.
My understanding is that the final fitting out is done at the mother shipyard.
Queen Mary 1's elevator cab is the prime example of fine workmanship that would be hard to duplicate today.
I hope this illustrates my point
quote:Originally posted by Ernst:This is confusing: Norwegian Dawn was built at Meyer not Lloyd Werft (Lloyd Werft is usually not building cruise ships). Ships designed by Tilberg were built at many different yards and the fittings and suppliers used are not necessarily correlated to the shipyard where the ship is actually built.[ 09-24-2010: Message edited by: Ernst ]
quote:Originally posted by desirod7: Queen Mary 1's elevator cab is the prime example of fine workmanship that would be hard to duplicate today.
Except of course for the LA gang graffiti tagging. So sad that even the QM is not immune from gang tagging.
quote:Originally posted by desirod7:The sky is really not blue but actually cyan
I agree on that but Lloyd Werft is not Meyer Werft like Ford is not General Motors.
quote:Originally posted by desirod7:[...]My understanding is that the final fitting out is done at the mother shipyard.
Yes, and there are of course differences between the shipyards. However, what the shipyard and the customer agree on plays a big role. For a passenger it's not always possible to tell who is responsible for what.
quote:Originally posted by desirod7:[...]Queen Mary 1's elevator cab is the prime example of fine workmanship that would be hard to duplicate today.[....]I hope this illustrates my point
Queen Mary 1's elevator cab is the prime example of fine workmanship that would be hard to duplicate today.[....]I hope this illustrates my point
I would be more precise: It's absolutely possible to 'duplicate' such workmanship BUT there are cheaper options around today so it's less common these days (beside other factors that play a role like 'fashion' or how our contemporary style is different to the 1930ies).
Best regards,
Brian
MIAMI – OCTOBER 25, 2010 – Following the successful launch of Norwegian Epic, the Company’s largest and most innovative ship to date, Norwegian Cruise Line announced today that it has reached an agreement with MEYER WERFT GMBH of Germany to build two new next generation Freestyle Cruising ships for delivery in spring 2013 and spring 2014, respectively. Each of the 143,500 gross ton vessels, the largest passenger/cruise ships to be built in Germany, will have approximately 4,000 passenger berths and a rich cabin mix. Additional details about each ship’s new and exciting features will be released as construction progresses. The contract price for the two vessels is approximately €1.2 billion. The Company has committed financing in place from a syndicate of banks for export credit financing in connection with this project. “We have always been focused on a disciplined approach to capacity growth. Our decision to add two new ships reflects the significant progress we have made in improving our operating performance and repositioning the Company over the last several years, as well as the strong market demand we are seeing for Norwegian Epic and our other ships,” said Kevin Sheehan, Norwegian Cruise Line’s chief executive officer. “Building on the incredible success and popularity of Norwegian Epic, we are taking the best of what our newest ship has to offer, as well as drawing on our legacy of innovation in the cruise industry, in creating a new class of Freestyle Cruising vessel that is sure to provide our guests with the unparalleled freedom and flexibility they have come to expect on a Norwegian cruise.” “We are excited to be returning to MEYER WERFT and are confident that their rich ship building history and expertise will bring our vision to fruition,” added Sheehan. MEYER WERFT, based in Papenburg, Germany, most recently built Norwegian’s four Jewel-class ships – Norwegian Gem delivered in 2007, Norwegian Pearl and Norwegian Jade delivered in 2006, and Norwegian Jewel delivered in 2005. These new vessels are the eighth and ninth that the Company will build with MEYER WERFT. “Norwegian Cruise Line and MEYER WERFT have a long history of working together. We are thrilled to continue our partnership. Our teams work very well together and we are looking forward to building this new, exciting and innovative class of vessels,” said Bernard Meyer, managing partner of MEYER WERFT. “In addition, the 21,000 employees of the yard and its supplier companies* involved in the construction of the ships appreciate the new project from one of our longstanding customers.” Norwegian Cruise Line pioneered the concept of Freestyle Cruising and currently offers guests the freedom and flexibility to enjoy their cruise vacation on their own terms, including multiple dining venues, relaxed attire, a variety of accommodations and world-class entertainment. The Company took Freestyle Cruising to the next level with the introduction of Norwegian Epic in June 2010. The 4,100 passenger vessel has been called the “entertainment ship” with a variety of shows and venues that trump land-based resorts like those found in Las Vegas. Headliners include Blue Man Group, Cirque Dreams™ & Dinner, Legends in Concert, The Second City® Comedy Troupe, Howl at the Moon Dueling Pianos and Slam Allen Blues Band. In addition, the ship features Nickelodeon™ at Sea as part of its wide-range of family offerings. Further innovations include the largest spa at sea, the first true ice bar at sea and The Studios, which are staterooms designed and priced for solo travelers, along with The Villas, the largest suite complex at sea. “We are bringing this spirit of innovation to these two new build ships, as Norwegian continues to offer our guests new and exciting ways to enjoy their Freestyle Cruising vacation,” said Sheehan.
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