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» Cruise Talk   » Idle Chatter   » Would you fly on a 787 Dreamliner???

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Author Topic: Would you fly on a 787 Dreamliner???
Frosty 4
First Class Passenger
Member # 5826

posted 10-10-2013 01:57 PM      Profile for Frosty 4   Email Frosty 4   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Japan Airlines had 2 of their 787 jets return to airports following toilet malfunctions.
This is one case of many that plague the 787.
I think that with the carbon fibre materials used throughout the plane electrical issues seem to be the most prevailent. Grounding of the electrical system possibly the culprit.Carbon Fibre is not a good conductor.
I would NOT want to fly on this plane!!
Fortunately no major incidences have occurred(yet)
What are your thoughts??

Frosty 4


Posts: 2531 | From: Illinois | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 10-10-2013 03:11 PM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If you build a plane from plastic, what do you expect!

(Malcolm takes cover as he is sure someone will put me right on this!)


Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
Globaliser
First Class Passenger
Member # 4153

posted 10-10-2013 06:44 PM      Profile for Globaliser     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Frosty 4:
Fortunately no major incidences have occurred(yet)
Well, if you ignore one main battery fire, one main battery almost-fire, several months of worldwide grounding, followed by one more battery fire in a piece of peripheral equipment that has probably resulted in a write-off of that airframe ...

Yesterday's incidents were not both toilet problems. One was an anti-ice system fault. But all these routine glitches are giving Boeing a real dispatch reliability headache, with some airlines quite vocally telling Boeing that it's not good enough (which it isn't, and Boeing knows it).

But there is little evidence at the moment to suggest a single systemic issue. These just seem to be an accumulation of the usual little glitches in any new aircraft (and many well-established ones) - only more frequently than usual. And many of these may be due to it being a cut-price design built badly by cut-price contractors.


Posts: 1869 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
PamM
Cruise Director
Member # 2127

posted 10-10-2013 07:30 PM      Profile for PamM   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Globaliser:
.. one more battery fire in a piece of peripheral equipment that has probably resulted in a write-off of that airframe ...

Is the Ethiopian still at LHR? I read a while back it was going to take some thought over how to actually repair this as the structure had been damaged. How does one 'patch' a carbon-fibre baked barrel?

Pam


Posts: 12176 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Globaliser
First Class Passenger
Member # 4153

posted 10-11-2013 03:14 AM      Profile for Globaliser     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PamM:
Is the Ethiopian still at LHR? I read a while back it was going to take some thought over how to actually repair this as the structure had been damaged. How does one 'patch' a carbon-fibre baked barrel?
AIUI, yes.

The unconfirmed rumour runs along these lines:

The aircraft can't be flown without being repaired, and the aircraft can't be repaired at LHR except at ruinous cost, given that there is no local expertise and no engineering facilities for such a big job, and repairing at LHR is too public for Boeing's tastes in any event.

It's a big job because patching is probably not a viable option as a long-term repair due to the way the aircraft is constructed. So the likely long-term repair is a cut-and-shut job: Cut off the damaged part of the tail section and replace it with a new section inserted in its place. You can see why this isn't easily done at LHR - it goes well beyond "heavy maintenance".

So the cost of setting up the repair job and doing it exceeds the market value of the aircraft. The insurers therefore want to write it off as a constructive total loss. Boeing, for obvious reputational reasons, does not want to do that - but equally, doing a cut-and-shut job on an aircraft at LHR is too public even if Boeing is prepared to pay for it.

Result: stalemate while heads are being scratched. It's possible that a solution might involve some temporary patch that allows the aircraft to be flown unpressurised to a facility where it can be either repaired or scrapped in some privacy. In the meantime, I expect that airlines around the world are waiting to see whether, if a small fire results in the aircraft being declared a CTL due to its construction (when a more conventional aircraft could have been repaired by well-tested means), premiums for 787s will go through the roof.

Over the years, Boeing has made some extremely fine aircraft. Alas, the 787 is not one of them!


Posts: 1869 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frosty 4
First Class Passenger
Member # 5826

posted 10-11-2013 10:33 AM      Profile for Frosty 4   Email Frosty 4   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I did not get all the facts but Japan Airlines has either cancelled or is postponing their order for more 787s. That's a few billion $$$$.
Anyone hear more on this?

I have tried using carbon fibre pieces in my radio contolled aircraft. It is hard to cut and shape. Yes it's strong but brittle. I wonder what kind of stress fractures will occur? It seem carbon fibre is much more rigid than aluminum or titanium.
What effects of severe turbulence occur on carbon fibre over the long run?
I'm sure Boeing has tested this but not in actual operating flight condition over a long period of time.

F4


Posts: 2531 | From: Illinois | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
LeBarryboat
First Class Passenger
Member # 5308

posted 10-14-2013 04:21 PM      Profile for LeBarryboat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've talked with an executive with Airbus and he made an industry observation about the 787 which is that Boeing simply tried to cram too much electronics in the jet, and also tried to cram too much high-tech experimental elements into one jet, resulting in some unfortunate glitches. I'm sure, however; that Boeing will straighten out the glitches, and the 787 will become one of the most reliable, cost-effective aircraft in the sky.
Posts: 1955 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Globaliser
First Class Passenger
Member # 4153

posted 10-14-2013 05:30 PM      Profile for Globaliser     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Frosty 4:
I did not get all the facts but Japan Airlines has either cancelled or is postponing their order for more 787s. That's a few billion $$$$.
Anyone hear more on this?

No.

There was recent news of a significantly-sized JAL order of A350s, but there was no Boeing order cancellation linked to that.


Posts: 1869 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
lasuvidaboy
First Class Passenger
Member # 4527

posted 10-16-2013 05:41 PM      Profile for lasuvidaboy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We have flown on United's 787 twice and it is a gorgeous aircraft. For some reason, I still prefer the 777 and the 747-400. To bad the 747-8 is not getting the orders Boeing had expected as that is the best-looking giant passenger aircraft being built today.
Posts: 7654 | From: Hollywood Hills/L.A. | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
PamM
Cruise Director
Member # 2127

posted 10-16-2013 06:23 PM      Profile for PamM   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thank you Globaliser for all that information. Interesting. We'll have to wait and see how they finally decide to overcome the 'problem'. They don't want a CTL on the records so early on.

Pam


Posts: 12176 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Globaliser
First Class Passenger
Member # 4153

posted 10-23-2013 07:51 AM      Profile for Globaliser     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PamM:
We'll have to wait and see how they finally decide to overcome the 'problem'.
It was a timely question. It now looks like Boeing is going for the long-term patch after all! The Seattle Times reports:-
quote:
Boeing readies patch for fire-damaged 787

Boeing will repair the 787 Dreamliner jet damaged in a fire at Heathrow by making a duplicate fuselage section and cutting out a piece of it to create a giant patch, in a process one expert says is “pushing the limits of what’s been done in the past.”

Boeing has begun the delicate, expensive and crucial process of repairing the 787 Dreamliner that was badly damaged by a fire last July, approaching the fix in a way that will be closely tracked by its customers and competitors.

Behind a scaffolding erected more than a week ago at London’s Heathrow Airport, where the Ethiopian Airlines plane has been idled since summer, a repair team will glue a giant composite plastic skin patch into the burned crown of the fuselage, said two people with knowledge of the details. Boeing has scheduled five weeks for the repair, one said.

It’s a very complicated procedure, but less so than the alternative option that was suggested by some observers: pulling out and replacing the entire aft fuselage section, which Boeing fabricates as a single-piece barrel.

...


I'm sure that Boeing will feel hanging over it the shadow of its repair to JA8119.

Posts: 1869 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frosty 4
First Class Passenger
Member # 5826

posted 10-23-2013 01:06 PM      Profile for Frosty 4   Email Frosty 4   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
After several problems ( crash in Chicago)with DC 10s they were replaced by most major airlines. L1011s also had a short life it seems.

I always look as to what type aircraft is scheduled for the flights I want. The 787 would not be one I would choose.
This patch job seems foolish . If the damage was extensive.Boeing should have scrapped the plane.IMHO.
F4


Posts: 2531 | From: Illinois | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Globaliser
First Class Passenger
Member # 4153

posted 10-23-2013 03:14 PM      Profile for Globaliser     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Frosty 4:
If the damage was extensive.Boeing should have scrapped the plane.IMHO.
The problem is that the damage isn't extensive. It's small but difficult to fix permanently. And that is what is exercising Boeing, airlines and insurers all round.

Posts: 1869 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
lasuvidaboy
First Class Passenger
Member # 4527

posted 10-24-2013 06:33 PM      Profile for lasuvidaboy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Several carriers flew the DC10 until they were well-worn. United practically gave their old DC10s to FedEx where many are still flying.
Posts: 7654 | From: Hollywood Hills/L.A. | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brian_O
First Class Passenger
Member # 3910

posted 10-25-2013 12:18 AM      Profile for Brian_O     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
KLM still flies DC-10's into Montreal. They also fly the slightly newer MD-11 version of the plane, but they are both long discontinued disasters waiting to happen.

Brian


Posts: 2698 | From: Pointe-Claire, QC Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Globaliser
First Class Passenger
Member # 4153

posted 10-25-2013 03:28 AM      Profile for Globaliser     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
To be fair, the MD-11 is a disaster that actually keeps recurring in real life. Every time a wing snaps off one, I wonder why its certificate isn't withdrawn.
Posts: 1869 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frosty 4
First Class Passenger
Member # 5826

posted 10-25-2013 11:05 AM      Profile for Frosty 4   Email Frosty 4   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Does McDonnell Douglas or Lockheed still make any commercial jetliners? I think just military planes.
Boeing and Airbus seem to rule the roost.
F4

Posts: 2531 | From: Illinois | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ernst
First Class Passenger
Member # 5369

posted 10-25-2013 12:09 PM      Profile for Ernst   Author's Homepage   Email Ernst   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Frosty 4:
Does McDonnell Douglas or Lockheed still make any commercial jetliners? I think just military planes.
Boeing and Airbus seem to rule the roost.
F4

McDonnell Douglas merged with Boeing, Lockheed is indeed not producing any passenger aircraft.


Posts: 9746 | From: Eindhoven | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged

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