Log In | Customer Support
Home Book Travel Destinations Hotels Cruises Air Travel Community Search:

Search

Search CruisePage

Book a Cruise
- CruiseServer
- Search Caribbean
- Search Alaska
- Search Europe
- 888.700.TRIP

Book Online
Cruise
Air
Hotel
Car
Cruising Area:

Departure Date:
Cruise Length:

Price Range:

Cruise Line:

Buy Stuff

Reviews
- Ship Reviews
- Dream Cruise
- Ship of the Month
- Reader Reviews
- Submit a Review
- Millennium Cruise

Community
- Photo Gallery
- Join Cruise Club
- Cruise News
- Cruise News Archive
- Cruise Views
- Cruise Jobs
- Special Needs
- Maritime Q & A
- Sea Stories

Industry
- New Ship Guide
- Former Ships
- Port Information
- Inspection Scores
- Shipyards
- Ship Cams
- Ship Tracking
- Freighter Travel
- Man Overboard List
- Potpourri

Shopping
- Shirts & Hats
- Books
- Videos

Contact Us
- Reservations
- Mail
- Feedback
- Suggest-a-Site
- About Us

Reader Sites
- PamM's Site
- Ernst's Site
- Patsy's Site
- Ben's Site
- Carlos' Site
- Chris' Site
- SRead's Site


Cruise Travel - Cruise Talk
Cruise Talk Cruise News

Welcome to Cruise Talk the Internet's most popular discussion forum dedicated to cruising. Stop by Cruise Talk anytime to post a message or find out what your fellow passengers and industry insiders are saying about a particular ship, cruise line or destination.

>>> Reader Reviews
>>> CruisePage.com Photo Gallery
>>> Join Our Cruise Club.

Latest News...Carnival Corporation today announced that 100% of its ships across the global fleet are equipped with Starlink's high-speed, low-latency global internet connectivity. The completed installation further enhances Carnival Corporation's onboard experience for its guests and crew to provide even faster service, greater capacity, and more reliable Wi-Fi on its fleet of 90-plus ships across its portfolio...

Latest News...Villa Vie Residences, a leading innovator in modern-day residential cruising, proudly announces the new Endless Horizons program, transforming the concept of retirement for adventurers who dream of traveling the world without the hassle of planning or ongoing expenses. With a one-time payment of $299,999 USD for single occupancy and $499,999 USD for double occupancy,...

Latest News...Setting sail today for her debut season from Southampton, Celebrity Cruises’ award-winning ship, Celebrity Apex, is turning heads as she becomes the first ship in the revolutionary Edge Series to call the United Kingdom home. Celebrity Apex will kick off her European season from Southampton with an eight-night Norwegian Fjords cruise. This serene sailing will visit idyllic locations...

More Cruise News...


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile | register | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Cruise Talk   » Idle Chatter   » What's Wrong at Honda? Maybe Everything

UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: What's Wrong at Honda? Maybe Everything
desirod7
First Class Passenger
Member # 1626

posted 11-30-2010 08:52 AM      Profile for desirod7     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

What's Wrong at Honda? Maybe Everything

May 26, 2010

quote:
It's unusual for Honda Motor Co. Ltd. to deviate from its rigid model-replacement schedule, particularly for its bread-and-butter volume models such as the Civic. But that's just what the company is doing with the planned Civic replacement, pushing back the car's introduction from this fall until sometime next year.


The next-generation Civic apparently was not on competitive target -- and Honda sent it back to the garage for tinkering. Although some analysts and industry insiders think Honda's choice to rejigger the Civic is a positive signal, the fact the Civic has to go back to the drawing board at such a late stage speaks plenty about how far Honda has drifted from its once-indomitable methods.

Honda, which always used to be so good at having its finger on the pulse of the buying public, seemingly has exhausted its famed product-development mojo. Yes, the cars -- including the now almost five-year-old Civic -- still sell. The company reversed losses from the global industry downturn and for the fiscal year that ended in March recorded a $2.9-billion profit, a 96 percent surge. Honda maintains a top-drawer quality reputation.

Yet analysts, industry watchers and even Honda loyalists continue to murmur the company is losing its legendary edge for forward-looking engineering and an uncanny ability to apply that engineering in a way that delights customers.

John Wolkonowicz, manager of special projects for the IHS Global Insight North American auto forecasting group, said the reputation Honda earned in the 1980s and 1990s has allowed the company to hover above recent reality in the eyes of the car-buying public.

"The Honda name is still the gold standard in the industry," Wolkonowicz told AutoObserver. "But the fact is, they really seem to have lost it."

Edmunds.com analyst Ivan Dury says Honda so far has averted a precipitous sales slide. Still, consumer shopping consideration for Honda has been down in the first quarter this year at a time when one would expect it to be up in light of rival Toyota's troubles. "Honda's situation has the ingredients for a potentially tragic sales slide. If Honda keeps piling on incentives and sales remain flat or slip, we'll have another story on our hands."

Source: Edmunds.com

Civic Delay: Hitting Corporate Reset Button

The company delayed the Civic because whatever it had planned for the past four years now isn't right. Understanding of the company's off-message product-development apparently has reached the top chair.

President Takanobu Ito seemed to confirm at last month's Beijing auto show that he's aware Honda has lost a step or three, suggesting the company's engineering and marketing may have become "complacent," and adding his displeasure over the company's loss of U.S. market share in the first quarter this year.

The Civic engineering team may have been scared straight by a rash of new-model miscues that have left its development acumen in question. For one, it had planned the now-delayed Civic to be larger, but many critics contend that's one of Honda's prime problems: the company has been subsituting size for innovation -- the latest-generation Accord being the chief example.

More directly, another engorged Civic probably wouldn't compare favorably with the 40-mile-per-gallon highway fuel-economy numbers of new models entering the market, including Ford Motor Co.'s 2011 Fiesta and General Motors Co.'s 2011 Chevrolet Cruze. The best a conventionally powered current-generation Civic can manage is 36 mpg on the highway (the slow-selling Civic Hybrid whirrs out 45-mpg highway rating).

But the reasons Honda delayed the Civic run deeper than just proportions or fuel economy.

"The story here is the new products are not up to par," notes Edmunds.com's Drury. "The redesign of the Civic -- one of Honda's three core products along with the Accord and CR-V -- could spell disaster if they get it wrong."

Drury notes Honda's trio of core models makes up more than two-thirds of the brand's sales volume.

"I think they looked at the competition the next-generation Civic will face and realized they weren't top of the heap on several fronts," said Wolkonowicz. He thinks almost all of Honda's recently launched models -- including those of its Acura premium-car division -- have not been up to the standards of the past, by either engineering or styling measures.

Nonetheless, the Civic delay represents "very positive news for Honda," Wolkonowicz said, adding that the company stopping the Civic program in its tracks seems to be a signal Honda is acknowledging its corporate drift.

"This is the most encouraging news of all," he continued, saying the delay of the Civic is an all-too-rare admission from Honda that the next Civic "isn't perfect, like they [perceive] everything they've done before. I don't think they would have done this five years ago."

But, he cautioned of the Civic delay: "I hope it's a more effective use of a year than Toyota got with the Corolla," when it delayed the U.S. launch of the current-generation Corolla from 2007 until 2008. Toyota said the delay was due to scarce engineering resources and to insure quality, but speculation proposed the launch was postponed to tweak bland styling and other competitive attributes.

Backsliding While Competition Is Gaining

Honda's top-of-the-heap standing for compact cars and midsize family sedans has been assailed on several fronts, most notably from the surging Hyundai/Kia conglomerate -- but also from a revitalized Ford and General Motors Co.

But Honda's worst enemy recently seems to have been itself.

Wolkonowicz and other industry analysts point to many of the vehicles Honda and Acura currently have on the road as evidence of the company's foundering ways. Wolkonowicz said Honda's product-development backsliding has led to a "string of losers" after Honda spent years developing what many believed were cars with the best engineering-per-dollar value in the entire industry.

Another analyst said many recently launched Hondas are "sloppily designed, not very good to drive and even worse to look at."

All of those shots could apply to the Insight hybrid-electric vehicle, a car designed to showcase Honda's technical ability -- and prospectively go head-to-head with Toyota's dominating Prius hybrid. But the company's still licking its wounds from the dismal response to the year-old Insight, which came to market with dumpy styling, unexceptional fuel economy and a thorough cheapness in appointments and driving feel.


Customers seem to agree: the Insight found just 6,853 buyers in the first four months of this year, a sales pace that is a fraction of what Honda projected. "It's really not a very good car," IHS Global Insight's Wolkonowicz declared.

Honda Insight vs. Toyota Prius

Source: Edmunds.com


There is little reason to believe the Honda CR-Z hybrid coupe derived from the Insight, going

on sale in the U.S. this fall, will be any better; European enthusiast-magazine reviews have been politely noncommittal but cannot completely avoid giving the impression the CR-Z, if at least more engagingly styled than the Insight, also is a dud to drive. Edmunds.com's Inside Line drove a Japan-specification CR-Z earlier this year and found it engaging at some level but concluded the car utlimately is not the warm-performance coupe Honda suggested it would be -- nor does it live up to the role of sharp-handling CRX successor enthusiasts had projected for it.

Acura Struggles

The waning performance of the Acura upscale division is the topic of almost constant industry speculation, as Acura seems to further alienate its devoted buyers and produce few new ones, searching for a positioning strategy for its front-wheel-drive based luxury cars and crossovers. The brand abandoned its popular (and volume-selling) coupe, its flagship sells in the low hundreds of units monthly and critics insist each new generation of Acura is inferior to the model it replaces.

Edmunds.com's Drury points out that Acura is in the same situation as Honda, relying largely on a few vehicles for the bulk of its volume. The MDX, TL and TSX account for 87 percent of Acura sales. Sales of its other models -- RL, ZDX and RDX -- are "lukewarm."

Styling Miscues

Honda also has pulled the trigger on a string of stylistic dogs. The original Pilot crossover was bland but fit with the times, but the second-generation Pilot, launched in 2008, looked tired and passe before the first one was sold.

AutoObserver's comment at the time gives perspective to Honda's decision to delay the new Civic: "Launching the new Pilot exposes one of the Japan Inc.'s only flaws: reluctance to backtrack once a course has been set. Maybe after gauging the early reaction, if somebody with power had been able to say, 'This stinks, and we need to try again -- even if it means delaying our precious launch timetable,' the Pilot might have been redeemed."

The styling of the Accord Crosstour has endured near-universal disdain, the aging Ridgeline and Element have never been considered anything other than ugly ducklings and just about every vehicle in Acura's lineup is fanatically unattractive.

Honda Accord Crosstour vs. Toyota Venza

Source: Edmunds.com


It's the Engineering, Stupid

But styling is subjective -- and in the case of many esteemed brands, vehicles sell well despite weak or even off-putting styling.

Honda's real problem seems to come from the last place anyone -- including those within the company -- would expect: unconfident engineering.

For some time, Honda hasn't delivered much of the kind of innovation that once was baked into every new generation of vehicle it launched. Even the hardest of hard-core Honda fanboys admit it: from decisions like discarding double-wishbone front suspension for the Civic to wedging a V6 under the hood of the already too-fat new Acura TSX, Honda's answers of late seem to be little more than me-too solutions.

Honda was the first automaker to introduce a hybrid-electric electric vehicle in the U.S. -- but quickly gave away its leadership to Toyota. How? By sticking with the "mild" hybrid strategy of its Integrated Motor Assist technology, effectively backing the wrong engineering horse. Honda gambled the less-complex and less-expensive mild-hybrid approach -- inserted into existing models -- was the way to go with hybrids. With the Prius and its more-efficient full-hybrid engineering and a dedicated hybrid styling, Toyota blew past Honda and has never looked back.

And what of Honda's unparalleled reputation for engine advances? The company has assiduously avoided the direct-injection fueling that's fast becoming a standard for other makers. Honda backed away from a plan to make diesel engines one of Acura's technical calling cards.

While rival automakers are turning to high technology to generate more power from smaller engines -- once a Honda forte -- Honda's march has been to simply make its engines larger (insiders already are saying one change to come from the Civic's delay will be the move to a high-tech "downsized" engine). Other makers have bypassed Honda even in its area of perpetual engine leadership: advanced valvetrain designs.

Honda had long been able to claim being the U.S. market's fuel-economy leader. Hyundai stole away that badge last year.

The same week it acknowledged the plan to reengineer the Civic, Honda also confirmed a second delay in the production timeline for its high-profile HondaJet corporate jet. HondaJet production now is scheduled for mid 2012, two years later than originally promised.

"It's not going to be so easy for Honda anymore," to maintain its engineering reputation, Wolkonowicz said. "Honda had a kind of superiority complex for many years. It became part of the internal culture. They need to do some soul-searching." -- Bill Visnic, Senior Editor


IMO Generation 3 of the Honda CRV is a styling dog where Gen 2 had a nice rugged look. The original Acura TSX [European Accord] was just the right size with a beautiful interior. The new one is upsized with more fussy interior details.

Ditto for the new Accord and Acura TL.


Posts: 5727 | From: Philadelphia, Pa [home of the SS United States] | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
JohnHJ
First Class Passenger
Member # 30846

posted 11-30-2010 10:53 AM      Profile for JohnHJ   Author's Homepage   Email JohnHJ   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Desirod - Thanks for sharing. I am a bit of a 'Hondafile' myself. I couldn't agree more with most of the articles you posted. This coming from someone who owns a 2005 Odyssey, 2005 S2000 and a 2009 Ridgeline. I absolutely love all three vehicles, however; it has been difficult to consider some of their newer models. I will say that I love the newest rendition of the Pilot and will probably trade in our 2005 model for the 2011 model within the next few months, as it is very stylish and is true to the Odyssey heritage.

On the Acura side....wow....the brand just feels lost right now. I love the MDX, but that's about it in their line-up. One thing is certain though.....Honda might be down but they certainly aren't out. I don't believe there is a more forward thinking mobility company in the known universe. They will get it right.....this coming from someone who is intimately involved in the coolest of ALL the Honda products - The HondaJet! Honda has ALWAYS had wings!


Posts: 60 | From: Tallahassee, FL | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged
Grant
First Class Passenger
Member # 1000

posted 11-30-2010 02:39 PM      Profile for Grant   Email Grant   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Our national newspaper reports that the Civic was the #1 selling car in Canada for many years, but for the last 2 years, the Mazda 3 has become the #1 selling car in the country. They are everywhere, and here in Canada, almost all of them are the hatchback version.
Me, I'm a Ford guy, a Fushion the current drive after 5 years with an Escape-never should have sold it as it was perfect!
Grant

Posts: 834 | From: Victoria, BC, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Frosty 4
First Class Passenger
Member # 5826

posted 11-30-2010 03:51 PM      Profile for Frosty 4   Email Frosty 4   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have numerous Honda products. Honda Accord Acura RL, lawnmower,snowblower and a scooter.
There must be some issues with the new Civic thus its delay.
Honda is still #1 after the Toyota problems.

Frosty 4


Posts: 2531 | From: Illinois | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
desirod7
First Class Passenger
Member # 1626

posted 01-08-2011 10:47 AM      Profile for desirod7     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Despite Acura's recent ugliness, they still offer a lot car for the money. Lexus, Infiniti, and the German brands are more expensive when crossed over for performance, room, and pushbuttons.

Recent marketing studies note that Acura is now a step up brand. People step up from Honda, Nissan, Toyota, when done with Acura go to Lexus, Infinity, and the German brands. It is like Buick, Oldsmobile, Mercury, and Chrysler of the old days.

They are like Celebrity cruise lines and HAL of recent: upscale at fares much less than Cunard or Oceania. Not the same panache but still a very good value for the money


Posts: 5727 | From: Philadelphia, Pa [home of the SS United States] | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
lasuvidaboy
First Class Passenger
Member # 4527

posted 01-08-2011 06:00 PM      Profile for lasuvidaboy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree about Acura. What happened w/their styling?? The original Legend coupe was a gorgeous car when it was introduced and still looks great today-20 years later. Acura needs to drop that ugly front and their cars need a make-over to give them a more upscale and elegant look. I read that Ford now has the greatest owner loyalty and is making buckets of money w/their incredibly successful new line-up.
Posts: 7654 | From: Hollywood Hills/L.A. | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged

All times are ET (US)  

Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | CruisePage

Infopop Corporation
Ultimate Bulletin BoardTM 6.1.0.3

VACATION & CRUISE SPECIALS
Check out these great deals from CruisePage.com

Royal Caribbean - Bahamas Getaway from $129 per person
Description: Experience the beautiful ports of Nassau and Royal Caribbean's private island - CocoCay on a 3-night Weekend Getaway to the Bahamas. Absorb everything island life has to offer as you snorkel with the stingrays, parasail above the serene blue waters and walk the endless white sand beaches. From Miami.
Carnival - 4-Day Bahamas from $229 per person
Description: Enjoy a wonderful 3 Day cruise to the fun-loving playground of Nassau, Bahamas. Discover Nassau, the capital city as well as the cultural, commercial and financial heart of the Bahamas. Meet the Atlantic Southern Stingrays, the guardians of Blackbeard's treasure.
NCL - Bermuda - 7 Day from $499 per person
Description: What a charming little chain of islands. Walk on pink sand beaches. Swim and snorkel in turquoise seas. Take in the historical sights. They're stoically British and very quaint. Or explore the coral reefs. You can get to them by boat or propelled by fins. You pick. Freestyle Cruising doesn't tell you where to go or what to do. Sure, you can plan ahead, or decide once onboard. After all, it's your vacation. There are no deadlines or must do's.
Holland America - Eastern Caribbean from From $599 per person
Description: White sand, black sand, talcum soft or shell strewn, the beaches of the Eastern Caribbean invite you to swim, snorkel or simply relax. For shoppers, there's duty-free St. Thomas, the Straw Market in Nassau, French perfume and Dutch chocolates on St. Maarten. For history buffs, the fascinating fusion of Caribbean, Latin and European cultures. For everyone, a day spent on HAL's award winning private island Half Moon Cay.
Celebrity - 7-Night Western Mediterranean from $549 per person
Description: For centuries people have traveled to Europe to see magnificent ruins, art treasures and natural wonders. And the best way to do so is by cruise ship. Think of it - you pack and unpack only once. No wasted time searching for hotels and negotiating train stations. Instead, you arrive at romantic ports of call relaxed, refreshed and ready to take on the world.
Holland America - Alaska from From $499 per person
Description: Sail between Vancouver and Seward, departing Sundays on the ms Statendam or ms Volendam and enjoy towering mountains, actively calving glaciers and pristine wildlife habitat. Glacier Bay and College Fjord offer two completely different glacier-viewing experiences.

| Home | About Us | Suggest-a-Site | Feedback | Contact Us | Privacy |
This page, and all contents, are © 1995-2021 by Interactive Travel Guides, Inc. and/or its suppliers. All rights reserved.
TravelPage.com is a trademark of Interactive Travel Guides, Inc.
Powered by TravelServer Software