1. Miami is 'limited' by its single long embarkation terminal port to a maximum of 5-6 ships on any given busy day. That is, five on the ship channel side and one another on the back side near the Royal Caribbean HQ building. This, when Port Everglades can accommodate ten or more? Could Miami ever expand with additional berths or piers?

2. When did the big switcheroo occur between the cruise lines and the two ports? It used to be back in the day (or at least in my mind) that certain cruise lines always/only left from either MIA or FLL. Now they are all mixed with Celebrity, Carnival, Royal Caribbean, etc leaving from either/both ports, HAL and NCL the exceptions still pretty much sticking to their original homeports. Why doesn't NCL leave from FLL and HAL from MIA? Why has NCL put so many ships out of NYC and abandoned Miami?

3. Now we have a port of embarkation within a half days driving distance from just about anywhere on the eastern seaboard, five alone just in Florida. I hear Jacksonville may be getting the ax. Would the cruise lines ever consider Savannah or Wilmington? Why not put more ships out of Baltimore? Why has Norfolk never had a permanent homeported ship?

4. Or why not consolidate more ships back to Miami with more mid-week departures or longer 10-night cruises? Seems like all the longer cruises leave from FLL.

[ 02-26-2011: Message edited by: dmwnc1 ]

But NCL did not abandon Miami--with the deployment of their EPIC, it has boosted the last Quarter revenues and and pax loads by 20% over the previous year. Both NCL and CCL have positioned lots of their other tonnage in "drive-to" ports around the country, as you pointed out, but there are drawbacks to having ships in many Northern ports, with both the severe weather and longer distances to sail to ports. Too many 7-night cruises can't get much further than Florida and the Bahamas.

In recent years the cruise lines have simply worked out the best deals they could with the respective ports--much depends upon costs, infrastructure, berth availability, airlift, etc. Miami in theory could accommodate more cruise ships, but you must realize that a huge portion of Dodge Island is given over to container ships--a LOT of cargo goes in and out of Miami, far more than at Port Everglades.

quote:

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Originally posted by Carlos Fernandez:
The way I see it our politicians have not done enough to keep ships and provide incentives to cruise lines to berth more ships in Miami. This year we will not have a Royal Caribbean ship home ported year round apart from Majesty of the Seas which is a shame. If the people in charge, port director and politicians would have done more we could've had Oasis and Allure of the Seas home ported here as well as Carnival Dream or Magic. Facilities here can be updated and enlarged as easily as the warehouses in Fort Lauderdale, and Miami is a true departure to a Caribbean vacation. More passengers leaving from Miami means more money spent here and more tax dollars we get which are highly needed, but of course our politicians were more involved with getting some out of state construction companies some high paying jobs such as the port tunnel and the Marlins stadium for their own benefit than actually bringing tourism dollars. Sorry for the rant but the things I see here are outrageous.

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This announced today Carlos. Probably a good thing all around for the port.

Also, what are your feelings on the recall of Miami-Dade County Mayor Carlos Alvarez? Just received my sample ballot. To be honest I haven't been back in Miami long enough to be up on all the politics. I know Miami-Dade is fairly corrupt and pretty much always has been, but that has also been the case with most of the US cities I have lived in.

Ernie

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Gov. Rick Scott to fund Port of Miami project

Gov. Rick Scott Friday said the state will contribute $77 million to deep dredge the port of Miami so that larger ships can use it.

Scott said he’s directed the state Department of Transportation to “amend” its work plan to account for the $77 million “so that Florida can take another leap forward in international trade.”

The announcement comes the same day as Scott rejected $2.4 billion for a high speed rail system in the state. He called the port dredge “the type of infrastructure project that will pay permanent, long-term dividends, and provide a solid return on investment for Florida’s taxpayers.”

Once the port is dredged to a depth of 50 feet, it could accommodate larger ships built to traverse the Panama canal, which is being expanded.

“There are a number of worthy infrastructure projects that deserve our attention, and as Floridians, we know best where our resources should be focused,” Scott said.

Port officials had hoped to secure the money in a congressional earmark, but were thwarted when Congress began to swear off earmarks. The Obama administration did not include any money for the project in its 2012 budget.

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Originally posted by dmwnc1:
I see the COSTA ATLANTICA sailing out of Miami. What happened, did Costa get bumped out of FLL? I don't see them returning to the US at all Winter 2011/2012.

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It was announced that COSTA ATLANTICA would move to Miami after her refit. Not sure of all the reasons.

Attached is the Costa Caribbean deployment for 2012. I'm quite excited that COSTA LUMINOSA is coming to North America. I have little desire to sail on Costa, with the exception being LUMINOSA and DELIZOSIA. While they still have the Carnival Farcus decor, the design is a unique hybid of the Spirit and Vista Class design. The public areas look more Spirit Class, which I very much prefer.

What else is interesting is that Costa will operate GRAND VOYAGER. See additional information from the press release below.

Ernie

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The Caribbean: a new itinerary and wellness cruises
A new itinerary for one of Costa Cruises’ “classic” destinations. In winter 2011/12 the Costa Atlantica will be offering a 10-day cruise departing from Miami and porting at Grand Turk, Ocho Rios (Jamaica), Grand Cayman, Roatan (Honduras), Cozumel (Mexico) and Nassau (Bahamas). For the first time the Costa Luminosa will also be positioned in the Caribbean on 7-day cruises calling at a different island each day. Also for the first time, the Costa Luminosa will bring to the Caribbean “wellness cruises” with all the superb amenities of the Samsara Spa: treatments, winter garden, solarium, thalassotherapy pool, sauna and Turkish bath, cabins with direct Spa access and a dedicated restaurant. In 2012 Costa total capacity in the area will increase of 25%

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The Grand Voyager belongs to the fleet of Iberocruceros, the Costa Group brand dedicated to the Spanish and Portuguese markets. This vessel will be operated by Costa Cruises, she will have the trademark yellow funnel with the blue “C”, she will have Costa personnel on board and she will offer the same distinctive Italian-style service excellence found on other Costa cruises.

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Originally posted by dmwnc1:
I see the COSTA ATLANTICA sailing out of Miami. What happened, did Costa get bumped out of FLL? I don't see them returning to the US at all Winter 2011/2012.

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When Costa decided last year to move to Miami for this season, the official reason was based on airlift (MIA vs. FLL) -- most of their pax are international, arriving and departing from MIA. That reason may be just coincidental, and very likely they were bumped from PEV due to only having one ship, and that is seasonal.

Similar speculation to Celebrity moving ships like ECLIPSE and CENTURY to Miami, although they also maintain a large presence in PEV.

Fort Lauderdale International Airport has very comparable domestic routes, and one could even argue that with 2 of the big 3 discount carriers having a significant presence at FLL, this too is a factor....not a primary factor....but a factor. Which leads me to a non-related question - I wonder if Southwest will serve MIA as Airtran is right now once the merger is completed?

quote:

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Originally posted by JohnHJ:
Miami International on the other hand? For those of you who airline on a regular basis I can only think of one other airport I hate traveling into and out of more in the U.S. and that is JFK.

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I'm not sure how long it's been since you have traveled through MIA, but if it's been a while it's not the airport you remember. While there is still room for improvement, much progress has been made to MIA and it's actually a pretty pleasant experience now. Most of the terminals have been extensively refurbished or rebuilt and are quite fresh, bright, and modern with great facilities (and clean!). Recently the first section of the Sky Train was completed connecting areas of the North Terminal. There have been massive improvements in the surrounding infrastructure such as access roads, signage, and ramps and it's pretty easy to get around now. Easing the congestion is the RCC, or Rental Car Center. This massive new complex recently opened and will be connected to MIA by the sky train. It now houses all the rental car companies in one location, and with the sky train there will be no more rental car busses adding to the congestion at MIA. Lastly is the Miami Intermodel Center still under construction. It's adjacent to MIA and the RCC and will be connected by the sky train. It will be sort of a Grand Central Station for Miami, as a major hub for everything related to transportation. Busses, Metro Rail, MIA, Tri-Rail, etc. will all be accessible from the MIC.

As you can see, there has been a lot of development at MIA and this will continue for the next few years. Also keep in mind MIA is the far bigger airport (compared to FLL), and basically Miami's connection to the world on an International level. Relating all this to personal experience, I can say my recent experiences at MIA have actually been better than FLL. The terminals at FLL are outdated and too small to accommodate all the passengers at peak times. On Saturdays and Sundays the airport is literally a zoo, with massive amounts of people, excessive lines at the relatively small security check-points, overcrowded and dirty restrooms, and not enough seating in the outdated terminals so people are sitting on the floor. It's really time for a major upgrade in all the terminals. Oh, and the dated and stained palm tree carpet has to go along with the half-working neon Dolphin displays in baggage claim! LOL

Add to all this that overall Miami is a superior cruise port with easier entry access (no security check point), better parking, and state of the art terminals (not converted cargo sheds) and I see no reason why Miami can't continue to be the #1 cruise port in the world. Currently at the Port of Miami there is a major tunnel being built under Government Cut to connect the cargo port directly with I-395 and I-95. This will mean no more trucks congesting the port entry area and downtown Miami, which equates to a better experience for cruise passengers.

Anyway lots of great things happening at MIA and the Port of Miami. What the port needs now is the right people running it, and the right incentives to lure in the cruise lines. The facilities are already first rate and only getting better.

Cruise passengers do have to spend here, pay local taxes, eat in our restaurants, use our hotels and our taxis. With Oasis and Allure there would've been 14,000 people, most not local and that's just two ships; then there are the ship services, food, etc. I'm no business person but it makes sense to me.

About mayor Carlos Alvarez I really don't know what to say, he's done some good things around the county but not nearly enough. The problem with him is the Marlins Stadium. The owner of the team, Jeffrey Loria should've paid for the stadium since the Marlins are a private business, instead they used tax money. That money should've been used for public works, specially the hospitals also considering the crisis we have at Jackson Hospital. He also raised the salary of some high ranking county officials while reducing that of all other city employees and some lay offs.

quote:

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Originally posted by Carlos Fernandez:
Ernie, I really don't think the dredging project will boost the local economy more than bringing more cruise passengers, it is far more efficient to take the ship coming from Asia to the west coast, if there are any benefits they would be minimal IMO.

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Hi Carlos,
I don't know the economic benefits of cruise passenger revenue vs cargo revenue, but I know that cargo is a very important component to both Miami and Port Everglades. Both ports are expanding their cargo infrastructure so I imagine it brings in substantial revenue.

My understanding is if Miami doesn't dredge to 50' by 2014, it will be at a major competitive disadvantage. When the "new" Panama Canal opens, it will accommodate a new breed of ships that require more depth. Miami is currently the #1 port for cargo coming from South America and Central America. I'm not sure exactly how this trade plays into the new Panama Canal, but apparently it's quite important. If Miami is not capable of accommodating these new larger cargo ships, then the business goes to offshore ports like Freeport.

I agree with you that cruise passenger revenue is also important, I just don't know if one is significantly better than the other to local economy. I think they are both very important.

quote:

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Originally posted by Carlos Fernandez:
[...] it is far more efficient to take the ship coming from Asia to the west coast, if there are any benefits they would be minimal IMO. [...]

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I guess the discussion 'ship vs. train' is as old as the Panama canal itself (maybe in this case it's also 'trucks vs. ship'). Cargo ships are very efficient and in many cases it would be an advantage to get the cargo by ship to the Gulf- or East coast. That's finally an important part of the business model for the Panama Canal.

Short article on the impact of the Panama canal expansion on U.S. ports.

Just to add to the Miami vs. Port Everglades discussion the link to the statistics provided on the webpage of the respective port operator:

Port Everglades

Miami

...and to put that into context:

The 2009 ranking of U.S. ports by cargo tonnage.

[ 03-06-2011: Message edited by: Ernst ]

One thing I neglected to post in my comment is the aesthetic views of each port. Personally, I love Miami by a long shot. There is something 'just right' about looking back at the skyline of Miami as you begin to pull out into the channel heading towards Government Cut.

Carlos, good point about the international traffic going into JFK. I never really thought of this point of view, however; I would suspect that domestic traffic still makes up the majority of embarkations at each port.

Terminal 18 is indeed impressive and had RCI been able to have similar facilities in Miami, I suspect that would have been considered the 'shift' putting Miami back on top given the prestige of having the two largest cruise ships in the world home port there.

FLL in contrast is far too small and except for Terminal 1 it has become old and shabby too. Honestly, I find FLL vastly worse than JFK (other than the hideously awful and soon to be demolished Terminal 3) or even LGA's old (and also hopefully soon to be demolished) Central Terminal Building.

As for the ports themselves, I have to give Miami a huge edge there too ... I have not had the opportunity to try Terminal 18 at Port Everglades yet but the whole set-up of the port is inconvenient and the other terminals range from barely adequate to horrible. Miami ... better access, mostly better terminals, better views and now better airport too. So I will take Miami any day.

quote:

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Originally posted by dougnewman:
I have not had the opportunity to try Terminal 18 at Port Everglades yet but the whole set-up of the port is inconvenient and the other terminals range from barely adequate to horrible. Miami ... better access, mostly better terminals, better views and now better airport too. So I will take Miami any day.

I really wish Miami had won OASIS and ALLURE -- I am sure Port Everglades is working out well but it is just weird not having the newest and largest RCI ships in Miami.

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I agree completely Doug. I would have loved to see Miami get the ALLURE and OASIS. It would be so great to see them docked while driving down the causeway. Also, it's kind of cool to have the newest Royal Caribbean ships out of Miami since their headquarters is right at the port.

This being said, Terminal 18 at Port Everglades works very well for these ships. Royal Caribbean really achieved the aspirational goal of curbside to gangway in 15 minutes. It's an amazing feat when you think about it. Terminal 18 is well designed, but there is nothing architecturally significant about it except that it's the largest. Like the rest of the terminals at Port Everglades, it looks and feels like a giant warehouse with no windows. I believe the fairly generic "tilt-up" poured concrete construction method was used, which is typical for warehouse type structures.

Much more attractive are the Royal Caribbean terminals at Miami. They are beautiful to look at and a pleasure to embark from. I love all the windows looking out to the ship. I haven't used the new Carnival terminals yet in Miami, but they also look very nice.

I would have to say the best terminals I've embarked from are:

Disney Terminal at Port Canaveral
Royal Caribbean Terminals at Miami
Terminal 18 at Port Everglades
Canada Place in Vancouver

The new Ocean Terminal at Southampton was actually a disappointment. It was chaos embarking on QM2 last April. It looks good but didn't work that well.

quote:

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Originally posted by dougnewman:

FLL in contrast is far too small and except for Terminal 1 it has become old and shabby too. Honestly, I find FLL vastly worse than JFK (other than the hideously awful and soon to be demolished Terminal 3) or even LGA's old (and also hopefully soon to be demolished) Central Terminal Building.

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Something else we agree on. I think people like to remember FLL the way it was 10-15 years ago. It was a great airport back then and easy to travel through. The expansion of the cruise industry and 9/11 have made the airport somewhat obsolete. These days it's a zoo on weekends and the terminals are way to small to accommodate the passengers. Terminal two for instance has one bathroom once through security for several packed gate houses. Terminal 3 and 4 are no better. The small terminals and security check-points are just not equipped to handle the current traffic. As you mention, most of the terminals are also so outdated looking. I honestly don't think anything has been done to most of them in 15 years. The same palm tree carpet although these days quite filthy and stained. It's time for a major overhaul.

Well I will have the um, pleasure of working my first flight out of JFK Terminal 3 on the 17th to London. My colleagues tell me nothing has changed since the last time I was based in NY, 17 years ago! Well my time in NY will be short lived as I'll be based in Miami/Ft. Lauderdale beginning in April. Although I'm not senior enough to hold the MIA/LHR flight in Miami, I hope to get a few of them on occasion by swapping.

quote:

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Originally posted by eroller:
This being said, Terminal 18 at Port Everglades works very well for these ships. Royal Caribbean really achieved the aspirational goal of curbside to gangway in 15 minutes.

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quote:

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Originally posted by eroller:
Much more attractive are the Royal Caribbean terminals at Miami. They are beautiful to look at and a pleasure to embark from.

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quote:

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Originally posted by eroller:
I haven't used the new Carnival terminals yet in Miami, but they also look very nice.

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It's weird to think, actually, that I've only ever sailed Royal Caribbean and Celebrity from Miami. I guess that has something to do with having been on a total of one NCL cruise and no Carnival cruises. And the other Carnival "brands," the ones I actually have been on, mostly "live" in Port Everglades.

quote:

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Originally posted by eroller:
The new Ocean Terminal at Southampton was actually a disappointment. It was chaos embarking on QM2 last April. It looks good but didn't work that well.

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quote:

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Originally posted by eroller:
I think people like to remember FLL the way it was 10-15 years ago. It was a great airport back then and easy to travel through.

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It used to be I would rather fly to FLL even to sail from MIA ... those days are very much over though.

I think FLL has sort of become the "low-cost" alternative to MIA, if you look at the airlines that fly there. It's dominated by LCCs whereas MIA barely has any. It reminds me of places like London where what airport you're using is substantially determined by what kind of airline you're flying.

quote:

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Originally posted by eroller:
Well I will have the um, pleasure of working my first flight out of JFK Terminal 3 on the 17th to London. My colleagues tell me nothing has changed since the last time I was based in NY, 17 years ago!

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(For those of you not familiar with this "palace:" there are actually birds living inside the terminal.)

quote:

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Originally posted by eroller:

I agree completely Doug. I would have loved to see Miami get the ALLURE and OASIS. It would be so great to see them docked while driving down the causeway. Also, it's kind of cool to have the newest Royal Caribbean ships out of Miami since their headquarters is right at the port.

Ernie

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I'm not sure of the statistics and facts, but is it possible that OASIS and ALLURE are simply too big for Miami? I'm thinking of their dimensions in the turning basin; they're 150 feet longer than NORWAY was, and she was pushing the envelope when she used the Basin.

I'll have to go back to the time of Project Genesis being planned to see the reasoning for going up to PEV--it's just possible that they have gone there out of necessity.

Rich

[ 03-09-2011: Message edited by: Linerrich ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Linerrich:

I'm not sure of the statistics and facts, but is it possible that OASIS and ALLURE are simply too big for Miami? I'm thinking of their dimensions in the turning basin; they're 150 feet longer than NORWAY was, and she was pushing the envelope when she used the Basin.

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Could be Rich. I honestly don't know but its a valid point. If you find out please let us know.

Thanks.

quote:

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Originally posted by dougnewman:

(For those of you not familiar with this "palace:" there are actually birds living inside the terminal.)

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LOL!! Not only that, but when I was there last April I noticed these interesting pieces of fabric hanging from the ceilings in the main terminal area. At first I thought maybe they were some kind of art exhibit to spruce up the place. Upon closer inspection I realized they were permanent tarps connected to hoses for collection of water from leaky ceilings. I guess actually fixing the ceiling was too much trouble!

It's really sad to think this terminal is the first impression of America for some people.

quote:

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Originally posted by Linerrich:

I'll have to go back to the time of Project Genesis being planned to see the reasoning for going up to PEV--it's just possible that they have gone there out of necessity.

Rich

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Hey Rich,
I decided to contact the Port of Miami to find out for certain. I was surprised how quickly they responded.

Ernie

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The Liberty of the Seas stretches out to {1113' LOA/ 127' Beam/ 28'
Draft} the longest cruise ship to date for the Port of Miami (POM). The
widest is the Norwegian Epic {1081' LOA/ 172' Beam/ 28' Draft}. Notice
the drafts for vessels mentions are at or around the same numbers. Even
the largest Cargo ship to date to berth at the POM is the CMA CGM DON
CARLOS with an LOA of 1099'.

The maximum distance in the Main Turning Basin is 1500'. The
Allure/Oasis of the Seas specs is {1184' LOA/ 198' Beam/ 30.5' Draft} so
we're talking 51' in LOA difference between our biggest ship and the
vessels in question. Our Basins and Deep Draft will accommodate the
Allure/Oasis class vessel. Please let me know if there is any further
information needed. Kind regards.

Frederick P. Wong Jr.
Miami-Dade County, Seaport
Seaport Operations Manager

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[ 03-09-2011: Message edited by: eroller ]