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» Cruise Talk   » Ports of Call and Destinations   » Gib/Spain Update

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Author Topic: Gib/Spain Update
PamM
First Class Passenger
Member # 2127

posted 05-20-2004 05:17 PM      Profile for PamM   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Ministers discuss cruise crisis
GIBRALTAR?S trade and industry minister, Joe Holliday, has called on the UK and Spain to resolve the cruise ship crisis, which he described as a ?no-win situation?. He told Fairplay: ?Spain will have to give in; it is not in their maritime interest. They are applying EU legislation that refers to cabotage and is irrelevant to cruise shipping,? the minister said. UK foreign secretary Jack Straw met Spanish foreign affairs minister Miguel Angel Moratinos for bi-lateral talks today to discuss the issue of Gibraltar. Madrid?s policy on cruise ships calling at Gibraltar is viewed by both the British and Gibraltar governments as politically motivated. The crisis erupted three weeks ago when the Spanish government refused to allow NCL?s Norwegian Dream to enter the port of Barcelona because it had previously called at Gibraltar. "We have lost seven or eight ships since then and Spain has lost two or three calls,? Holliday said. He said Cunard had cancelled a scheduled call by Queen Mary 2 on 27 May because dredging works at Gibraltar's cruise terminal had been postponed.
14:45 20 May"

from Fairplay

Pam


Posts: 12176 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
bulbousbow
First Class Passenger
Member # 4440

posted 05-20-2004 09:25 PM      Profile for bulbousbow   Author's Homepage   Email bulbousbow   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
More to read on this farce...

**************************************************

quote:
LINER OPTS FOR GIB STOP, MACSHANE TO STEP UP PROTEST
May 19, 2004

Cruise liner Prinsendam, of the Holland America Line, secured its lines in Gibraltar’s port yesterday and rejected a call from Tarragona which warned it would not be accepted there if it stopped at Gibraltar first. The lure of the Rock apparently proved too much for passengers and the vessel decided to call at Gibraltar and miss Tarragona as its next port of call.

Meanwhile, in Parliament Dr Denis MacShane, Minister for Europe, said that Britain’s complaints are being followed up by talks with Spanish authorities.

Lindsay Hoyle asked what representations the Foreign Secretary has made to the Spanish Government concerning cruise liners which have previously docked at Gibraltar being prevented from entering Spanish ports and if he would make a statement on the decision by the Spanish Government to refuse entry to the cruise liner Norwegian Dream to the port of Barcelona. Dr MacShane said that on the instructions of Jack Straw, Foreign Secretary, the British Ambassador in Madrid delivered a message to the Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs on Friday 29 April and complained again over the weekend of 1-2 May.

“He complained once more, to the Spanish State Secretary for Europe and the Americas, on 12 May, and to a senior Spanish official on 13 May. He expressed HMG’s disappointment and surprise at the Spanish action and stressed how seriously HMG views such hindrance to legitimate business by cruise liners. HMG is in close touch with the Spanish Authorities with a view to achieving an early solution to this problem. I will also raise the issue in meetings with Spanish officials this week.”

**************************************************

CRUISE ISSUE ROCKS ANGLO-SPANISH TALKS
Opposition demand action
May 20, 2004

Foreign and Commonwealth Office has threatened to take legal action against Spain unless there was an immediate resolution to the dispute, The Times reported yesterday. The issue is expected to feature in talks between Miguel Moratinos, Spain’s new Foreign Minister, and Jack Straw today.

The Minister meet for their first bilateral over-lunchtime and are expected to cover broad international issues as well as touching on Gibraltar.

Spain is expected to raise the question of Spanish pensions although it is understood their main objective will be to seek a restart of Brussels process talks.

The London-based Passenger Shipping Association (PSA), which represents 32 of the world’s leading cruise lines, has complained to the Spanish Government about the boycott, which is causing chaos to their itineraries that include Gibraltar and Spain.

In a letter to the Spanish Embassy, William Gibbons, director of the PSA warned Spain that the action by Spanish ports could threaten “the whole business of cruising in the western Mediterranean, with customers choosing to take their holidays elsewhere.”

Spain is making use of an obscure EU regulation passed in 1986 that restricts the entry of non-EU
vessels into European Union ports.

Silversea Cruises, the latest company to cancel a visit to Gibraltar, rerouted its ship, Silver Wind, out of Lisbon to the Spanish ports of Cádiz and Málaga. Michael Sugden, a spokesman for Silversea, said: “We have decided to cancel all stops in Gibraltar for the rest of the year because of the edginess of the political situation.” The Times quoted a British diplomat as saying: “We don’t see any justification or legal basis for what they are doing. It’s a strange way to go about it if you say that you want to return to serious discussion about relations between Spain, Britain and Gibraltar.” The Dutch-registered Prinsendam with 700 passengers aboard was denied docking at the Spanish port of Tarragona Tuesday. It was the eighth such ship to have been affected by the Spanish ban that came into effect three weeks ago.

Both to The Times and BBC Joe Holliday, Gibraltar’s Minister for Trade, Industry and Communications, highlighted that a number of ships have taken the decision of not calling at Gibraltar because they would not be allowed to visit Spain.

“This is unacceptable and unjustifiable,” he said adding that this is really a no-win situation for everybody because, in every case, either we or Spain is going to lose the call.

“There are EU citizens travelling on these cruisers and they are being denied their right of free movement within the EU. We have been singled out by Spain purely for political reasons. No other EU country is interpreting the regulation in this way. It’s an attempt by the Spanish Government to undermine one of the pillars of our economy.”

“Whenever a particular sector of our economy is doing well, we get an attack on it from Spain. The time has come for the Foreign Office to take a more energetic view and to tackle something which is outside the spirit of the EU,” he told The Times.

GARCIA CONCERNED
Meanwhile, Shadow Minister for Trade and Industry, Dr Joseph Garcia declared that the Opposition is seriously concerned at the continuation of the ban on cruise liners sailing from Gibraltar to Spanish ports.

“It is clear that the situation is more serious than suggested by the information given by the Government a few weeks ago in response to Opposition questions in the House of Assembly. At the last question-time in the House of Assembly at the beginning of the month I took advantage of a question on cancelled cruise calls to raise the issue of the Spanish ban,” he said.

Dr Garcia said the Government told the House that they understood that the problem had been created by an official in the Port of Barcelona who had decided to implement certain regulations which had previously been lain dormant. The Chief Minister also told the House that he preferred to play the issue low-key in order not to inflame the situation as a solution was possible by that weekend of 8-9 May.

“The fact that Spain’s new Europe Minister was still not in place following the election of the PSOE was mentioned as another factor. It is clear to the Opposition that not only has been no resolution, but that Government’s low-key approach has now gone out of the window with Minister Joe Holliday telling the British press today that Gibraltar is fighting a battle with Spain. The situation has continued to escalate, with cruise ships deciding either to exclude Gibraltar or exclude a subsequent call at a Spanish port from their itinerary.”

“What was originally described by the Government as the actions of one official is clearly now yet another anti-Gibraltar policy orchestrated by the Spanish state given that it has also extended beyond the Port of Barcelona to take in other ports as well, “ said Shadow Minister for Trade and Industry Dr Joseph Garcia.

Dr Garcia added: “It will be recalled that at the time of the Brussels agreement, which was signed by the previous Conservative Government, Spain was supposed to lift the restrictions against Gibraltar by land, sea and air. The restrictions by land were lifted only to a degree, those by air and sea remain in place. Spain has been taking advantage of the fact that she was obliged to lift Franco’s restrictions not in order to join the EU, but because she had an agreement with London that gave her the right to join the Community with most of the restrictions remaining in place. The Conservative Government shifted from their original position and Gibraltar is paying the price.” Dr Garcia said that Europe Minister Denis MacShane has now said that they “delivered a message” to the Spanish Foreign Ministry on 29 April, and that the British Ambassador ‘complained’ again over the weekend of 1-2 May.

“Reports from the Spanish side have suggested that far from being protests, these were simple enquiries as to why the cruise ban was being enforced. There were further ‘complaints’ on 12 and 13 May and Europe Minister Mr MacShane has indicated that he now intends to ‘raise the issue’ with Spanish officials this week.,” he said.

The Opposition say that the Gibraltar Government must ensure that the United Kingdom Government gets Spain to drop the ban and abolish the policy.

“If this policy is allowed to revert to a dormant position once more, there is no doubt that Spain will revive it again and use it against Gibraltar in the future. It is totally unacceptable that EU law appears not to be upheld when it comes to requiring Spain to accept our EU rights. What the United Kingdom should do is take Spain to Court every time that they breach EU law with regard to Gibraltar, instead of trying to broker a political solution which normally ends up being a fudge. Spain does not hesitate to take UK to court over Gibraltar, and we should do the same to them,” he said.

Gibraltar Chronicle


**************************************************

Well done Prinsendam!! I think all cruise lines should ban Spanish ports. The loser in the end will be Spain. When it starts to hurt they'll change their attitude.

Cheers


Posts: 6866 | From: Adelaide, Australia | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
bulbousbow
First Class Passenger
Member # 4440

posted 05-21-2004 01:33 AM      Profile for bulbousbow   Author's Homepage   Email bulbousbow   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
More...

**************************************************

quote:
Britain warns Spain over Gibraltar cruise ship row
Thursday May 20, 2004

LONDON (AFP) - British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw warned Spain's new government that its refusal to allow cruise ships which visit Gibraltar to then dock in Spanish ports was "unacceptable".

Speaking after talks in London with Spanish Foreign Minister Miguel Angel Moratinos, Straw said: "I spelled out to the minister that we regard the disruption to the cruise ships as unacceptable."

The authorities in Gibraltar revealed two weeks ago that Spanish ports were refusing to allow cruise ships to dock if they had previously called at the historic "Rock" at the western gateway of the Mediterranean.

The cruise-ship row is part of a wider ongoing spat with Spain over Gibraltar, a British possession for three centuries which Madrid lays territorial claim to.

London and Madrid came close to agreement on joint sovereignty in 2002, but negotiations collapsed after Gibraltarians voted by an overwhelming 99 percent in an unofficial referendum to reject any such deal.

Straw said Britain has not changed its position on Gibraltar, and would not cede the territory to Spain without the consent of its people.

Moratinos, on his first official visit to Britain since the Socialists won Spain's general election in March, hinted at a possible settlement over the cruise ships, but said no date had been set for formal talks on the status of Gibraltar.

"We have agreed to carry on talking in a constructive atmosphere," he said. "I think a satisfactory solution can be found."

Britain has made clear that it regards Spain's three-week-old boycott of cruise liners which attempt to dock in its ports after visiting Gibraltar as illegal, and has not ruled out legal action as a last resort.

Gibraltar this year will mark the 300th anniversary of its cession from Spain in 1704, formalised under the terms of the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht.

In recent years, London and Madrid have discussed possible joint sovereignty over the territory, an important Royal Navy base during the heyday of the British Empire and now an offshore financial center.


**************************************************

Cheers


Posts: 6866 | From: Adelaide, Australia | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
bulbousbow
First Class Passenger
Member # 4440

posted 05-22-2004 12:31 AM      Profile for bulbousbow   Author's Homepage   Email bulbousbow   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
SPAIN TO SUSPEND CRUISE LINER BAN
Dominique Searle
May 21, 2004

Spain has already instructed its Port authorities to lift the ban on cruise ships arriving from Gibraltar, the Chronicle learned last night.

It emerged that the Spanish Foreign Ministry, which had originally confirmed the measure to Port officials, has ordered the previous status quo to return. London itself had indicated yesterday that the test would be whether the next vessel is allowed to sail to a Spanish port.

Agreement appears to have been reached during the talks. Straw and Moratinos held a bilateral session before joining officials including the new senior diplomat tasked with Gibraltar issues, Jose Pons.

Meanwhile it is understood that Spain will continue to press hard for some move from Britain on the pensions issue.

Gibraltar Chronicle


**************************************************

Finally some good "common sense" news.

Cheers


Posts: 6866 | From: Adelaide, Australia | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
PamM
First Class Passenger
Member # 2127

posted 05-22-2004 04:08 AM      Profile for PamM   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good news. I wonder which ship though is going to be brave enough to be the first to 'test the waters'?
Pam

Posts: 12176 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
linerlvr
First Class Passenger
Member # 2009

posted 05-22-2004 12:08 PM      Profile for linerlvr   Email linerlvr   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I just returned from a cruise on the Royal Princess, which had called at Barcelona one day, then a day at sea followed by Gibraltar, then Casablanca and then Cadiz. Was the ban only on ships cruising from the "Rock" directly to Spanish ports?
Posts: 18 | From: Long Beach, CA | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
bulbousbow
First Class Passenger
Member # 4440

posted 05-23-2004 02:44 AM      Profile for bulbousbow   Author's Homepage   Email bulbousbow   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
linerlvr wrote:
Was the ban only on ships cruising from the "Rock" directly to Spanish ports?

Ridiculous isn't it. They ban ships coming from Gibraltar to a Spanish port but not from Gibraltar to Casablanca and then onto a Spanish port. Where is the logic to all this?

Cheers


Posts: 6866 | From: Adelaide, Australia | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
bulbousbow
First Class Passenger
Member # 4440

posted 06-10-2004 09:57 PM      Profile for bulbousbow   Author's Homepage   Email bulbousbow   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Spain suspends cruise ship ban
June 10, 2004

SPAIN'S merchant marine authority has suspended its ban on cruise ships entering Spanish ports after calling at Gibraltar. A source at La Marina Mercante revealed to Fairplay yesterday that Spain had agreed with the UK government to end its cruise offensive for three months and reach a definitive solution to the spat within six months. "The cruise issue caused such a fuss that the subject was addressed at the 20 May bi-lateral meeting between the British and Spanish governments," the source said. "Over the next three months no cruise ship calling at Gibraltar will be stopped from entering Spanish ports”. The move will calm fears in Gibraltar over the potential loss of calls during the height of the cruise season this summer. Gibraltar lost eight cruise ship calls as a result of the ban, which Fairplay revealed when the Norwegian Dream was banned from entering Barcelona after it had called at Gibraltar.

Fairplay


**************************************************

Cheers


Posts: 6866 | From: Adelaide, Australia | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
bulbousbow
First Class Passenger
Member # 4440

posted 09-06-2004 01:09 AM      Profile for bulbousbow   Author's Homepage   Email bulbousbow   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Spain extends Gibraltar cruise ban
September 3, 2004

SPAIN has extended a suspension on a ban on cruise ships entering Spanish ports after calling at Gibraltar for a further three months, a foreign affairs ministry spokesman confirmed today. He denied reports that Spain had definitively lifted the ban, saying the government had not ruled out the possibility of imposing it again in November. There is no official comment on the reason for the renewed suspension of the ban. The controversial subject was not addressed in a meeting between Gibraltar’s Chief Minister Peter Caruana and a senior Madrid diplomat last weekend. The cruise ban was initially suspended in May following a diplomatic row between the UK and Spain, but not before Gibraltar lost eight cruise ship calls.

Fairplay



quote:
Spain to lift ban on cruise liners
by PANORAMA reporter
September 3, 2004

THE Spanish government is to lift the ban on cruise ships, it is officially confirmed.

The ban affected certain cruise ships calling at Gibraltar if their next port of call was in Spain. It lead to calls at Gibraltar being cancelled.

The restriction was imposed by Sr Miguel Angel Moratinos when he became Spanish foreign minister, much against expectations at the time that the new PSOE government would adopt a conciliatory approach on Gibraltar.

Sr Moratinos had wanted to restart joint sovereignty negotiations, but this was rejected by Britain on the grounds that the message from Gibraltar had been made clear in the referendum.

MORATORIUM

He imposed a 3-month moratorium which has now ended. Foreign secretary Jack Straw had himself described the cruise ban as 'unacceptable' and had urged Sr Moratinos to lift it on a permanent basis.

The Spanish have now decided to lift the ban completely, describing it as a gesture to Gibraltar which it wants to win over.

The mood of restrictions in Madrid followed a series of acts in Gibraltar which the Spaniards saw as British reactions, such as the visits by Princess Anne, the Tireless, defence secretary Hoon etc., even though such visits had been planned earlier.

But observers in Madrid saw it as a toughening of the UK stand given the Spanish attitude.

REVIEW

Early last month, Sr Moratinos said he would be reviewing Spanish policy on Gibraltar given what he described as the unfriendly acts from Britain.

However, instead of getting tough, the Spanish have decided to adopt a policy of wooing the Gibraltarians, as was seen with the recent lunch meeting between Mr Caruana and Sr Pons, the senior Spanish official.

The Spanish plan is to try and win over the Gibraltarians to a position where they would not oppose sovereignty talks, thus weakening the British position that negotiations cannot proceed against the wishes of the people of Gibraltar.

Panorama


**************************************************

This thing may flair up again in November. Let's hope not.

Cheers

[ 09-06-2004: Message edited by: bulbousbow ]


Posts: 6866 | From: Adelaide, Australia | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brian_O
First Class Passenger
Member # 3910

posted 09-06-2004 01:35 AM      Profile for Brian_O     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
These two reports, both dated Friday, contradict each other. The first one even contradicts itself. Who are we to believe?

Brian


Posts: 2698 | From: Pointe-Claire, QC Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Globaliser
First Class Passenger
Member # 4153

posted 09-06-2004 06:58 AM      Profile for Globaliser     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brian_O:
These two reports, both dated Friday, contradict each other. The first one even contradicts itself. Who are we to believe?
I don't see how the first report contradicts itself.

I suspect that the second report is badly written. It probably means to say that "an official source" has said that the ban is to be lifted completely, not that it has been officially confirmed. The former is basically a leak, although possibly a sanctioned one.

I don't see anything in the first report which is likely to have been badly or misleadingly written. Of course, the journo could have been badly informed, but that's always a risk with such stories.

Reminds me of the two Times headlines on successive days:-
"Nizam of Hyderabad is dead"
"Nizam of Hyderabad slightly better"


Posts: 1869 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Brian_O
First Class Passenger
Member # 3910

posted 09-06-2004 07:14 PM      Profile for Brian_O     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Globaliser:
I don't see how the first report contradicts itself.


The leader to the first report says that the ban has been extended. The body of the report says the suspension of the ban has been extended. That is the self-contradiction.

Brian
.

[ 09-06-2004: Message edited by: Brian_O ]


Posts: 2698 | From: Pointe-Claire, QC Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
bmajor
First Class Passenger
Member # 1754

posted 09-07-2004 03:02 AM      Profile for bmajor   Email bmajor   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just had an email from our friends in Gibraltar...
QM2 is berthed there as I speak......
Having booked on QM2 to catch up with them in May,and then being denied access to the port ,I would love to see web cam shots or pics of this.
Does anyone out there on Cruise Talk have access to such pics?
If so I would be really greatful for any postings.

(I will also post this thread on the Cruise Ships topic.)

[ 09-07-2004: Message edited by: bmajor ]


Posts: 1371 | From: Orewa.New Zealand. | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged

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