1. the NORWAY/FRANCE will be scrapped on the beach in Alang later this year
2. the INDEPENDENCE will be scrapped soon
3. the UNITED STATES will be scrapped within the next 5 years despite what Colin Veitch says (I hope at Brownsville, TX as opposed to India since the asbestos issue will not preclude scrapping in the US)
4. the QE2 will end up scrapped just as the CANBERRA was on the beach in India. (I am aware that she is no longer steam but there are the SOLAS issues with her)
5. ROTTERDAM might well struggle financially for many years but already appears to be an idea which cannot be sustained commercially and unless the Dutch government takes over the ship, she too will likely end up scrapped
6. EMERALD cannot go forever and someday will develop some problem with her structure or propulsion which cannot he economically repaired)
7. the OCEANIC may be the last to go, but she too will become too uneconomical as fuel prices climb in the future and Pullmantur will pull her from service and reluctantly sell her for scrap.

Otherwise, all the rest are already gone and they ain't coming back.

So will the QM1 be the sole survivor and can she even be sustained forever. Time does cause steel structures to deteriorate and unless a massive rebuilding takes place at some point, will she too become no longer viable even as a static museum/hotel? Will that be 2034 when she is 100 years old? That date is now less that 27 years away. Can she be made to last longer and if so, how will it be paid for?

What will be left other than books, photos and memorabilia? Can we learn to accept that this is the most likely fate of the "Great Liners"?

I'm interested to hear how others feel and what their thoughts are on this painful but real issue.

Michael

[ 05-26-2007: Message edited by: Marlowe ]

Delta Queen is a river vessel - BUT with a propler steam engine.

Sea Cloud is a sailing yacht - BUT parts of her are 'close' to an old liner from the first decades of the last century. (e.g. see )her promenade deck or parts of her interior)

In some weeks I might have material on more old ships online.

1) Don't forget today's new ship are tomorrows 'classics'.

For example: Many cruisetalkers will remember when everyone said that P&O's 'Oriana' was no replacement for 'Canberra', she was too modern and soul-less. A decade later Oriana and Aurora are starting to look like 'classic' ships.

2)What appears in history books is very much someones opinion and rarely fact.

For example: Sometimes when ships are gone a myth about how great they were builds up and they take on 'legendary' status.

The QE2 for example will be remembered as one of the most famous ship ever, a floating palace, wonderful accommodation and the finest food and service a float.

The realities are: a mix of outdated decor and new retro, many tiny cabins, mediocre food and service (on occasions) and overpriced fares. She also leaks very badly in storms. However all this will be forgoten in the History books.

The SS Norway will become such a legend and her faults (as a cruise ship) will all be forgotten. I often wonder if the Normandie was so wonderful in reality. I know that she looks great in history books, but how about things like food and service?

P.S. On the subject of modern History:

I can remeber when 'Abba' were great and everyone loved them. I also remeber when were regarded as 'crap' and everyone seemed to hate them. I now see that eveyone loves them again! However Abba never changed, it was only the publics-opinion that changed.

[ 05-26-2007: Message edited by: Malcolm @ cruisepage ]

It is true that some of the presently new ships will be classics somewhen - but there is still a a gap insofar as ships have changed quite a bit. Whereas I also like to travel with modern ships there are some design features which are not found (or rare) on more recently built ones.

Too many people are only aware of a handful of the most famous Atlantic liners and think that is the whole story, but there is so much more than that. The key thing to understanding liners is that they are machines, and were not built to last forever. They cannot be compared to buildings on land for example, and while we're fortunate to have the QUEEN MARY around for decades beyond her "sell by" date, that is an exception. Many other liners have been tied up as hotels and attractions over the past 50 years, but hardly any of them lasted financially or physically.

If you truly love the ships, make every effort to travel on the remaining ones while they're still around. Don't moan and complain if they are not sailing from your own backyard for a cheap price. Spend the coin to travel to where they are and get on board.

quote:

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Originally posted by Marlowe:
I hate to be a pessimist but the writing seems very clear now...all steam powered vessels built for passenger transportation as opposed to recreation are no longer commercially viable for further uses as either ships or as stationary hotels and thus means:

4. the QE2 will end up scrapped just as the CANBERRA was on the beach in India. (I am aware that she is no longer steam but there are the SOLAS issues with her)
7. the OCEANIC may be the last to go, but she too will become too uneconomical as fuel prices climb in the future and Pullmantur will pull her from service and reluctantly sell her for scrap.

Otherwise, all the rest are already gone and they ain't coming back.

I'm interested to hear how others feel and what their thoughts are on this painful but real issue.

Michael

[ 05-26-2007: Message edited by: Marlowe ]

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Oceanic is still quite popular and fits in with the Pullmantour format. They wanted to buy the SSNorway for the same reason. Boiler explosion killed the interest. Pullmantour to my understandiing
is a very 'social' type of cruise where families share cabins and could care less about balconies.

One old time steam driven passenger ship which was built in the UK in 1956 and is still making cruises around the world is ' THE TOPAZ '

She was built as the ' Empress of Britain '.

Neil ( Bob )

[ 05-26-2007: Message edited by: Neil Whitmore ( Bob ) ]

And speaking of the SS Rotterdam V, how do you know that the ship won't do very well as a hotel ship? You might as well place the MV Kungsholm/Mona Lisa to that list as well. As for the SS Topaz, I would love to see that ship join the SS Rotterdam and MV Kungsholm led, as well as the SS Oceanic/SS Olympia. This is just my opinion.

[ 05-27-2007: Message edited by: Redlinekid2 ]

[ 05-27-2007: Message edited by: Redlinekid2 ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Redlinekid2:
[...]
While your opinion of the mentioned ships might be scrapped has some merit to it, let's not forget that the SS Norway saga is not over yet[...]

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But it is extremly likely that she will be scrapped. Not only is the vessel already on the beach of Alang -
there is no serious proposal to safe her.

quote:

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Originally posted by Redlinekid2:
[...]
or the SS United States for that matter. There is still some hope left for both vessels as floating Hotels/Museums respectively.

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Other than in the case of Norway there is at least the possibility to preserve the United States - but it would still be a major effort.

quote:

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Originally posted by Redlinekid2:
[...]
You might as well place the MV Kungsholm/Mona Lisa to that list as well.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Marlowe:
The cases of the MONTEREY, UNIVERSE EXPLORER and OCEANBREEZE are sad examples of how quickly an old ship can be pulled from service and sent to the scrapheap of history. One boiler needing retubing, one turbine needing a main bearing replaced and off they go. No layup no lingering while an attempt is made to find a buyer to keep them going. Just a quick call to a scrap vessel broker, the hastily painted new name on the bows and before anyone can say "wait a minute" they become an item on MaritimeMatters and alll that remains are the photos in the William H. Miller books.

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S/S Albatros ex Sylvania etc....
They all are one shipyard visit from scrap...

We can both agree, as with everyone else, that only time will tell what the final fate for the SS Norway will be. Either someone with the Financial guts to pay Mr. Metha's asking price or it gets broken up. We certainly can't rely on the Indian Supreme Court to do anything at this point because it's quite clear that they are very corrupt to the core.

[ 05-28-2007: Message edited by: Redlinekid2 ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Redlinekid2:
[...]
While your comments are warrented regarding the SS Norway, there are serious talks with the scrapper to acquire it. Otherwise, why would Mr. Metha raised his asking price for the SS Norway to $45 Million? But for the timebeing, I won't make anymore comments regarding the sale of the ship until the negotiations are concluded.[...]

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....there are still more opportunites to travel with old ships than one would think. Checking the webpage where some of the pictures in the above thread are coming from I remembered this one.

[ 05-28-2007: Message edited by: Ernst ]

quote:

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Originally posted by lasuvidaboy:
but the vast majority of the ugly mass produced boxboats are like mass produced cars-neither will ever be considered a classic.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Malcolm @ cruisepage:

Of course many mass-produced cars will be considered classics, many already are. They may look ugly 'now' but they will gain charm as they get older.

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Another steamer is the Pacific Wonder of Pullmantur, if your Spanish culture and family tolerance is high!

There are some notable small vessels worth considering if you can afford them.
Noble Caledonia has the biggest collection!

Although diesel, the wonderful Clipper Adventurer has many liners features, including opening windows and portholes, promenade and no casino!

Classic Cruises of Portugal has a nice fleet, some under charter.
Funchal was steam once and is a miniature liner.
Her fleetmate Princess Danae, although rebuilt from a refrigerated cargo has a nice profile.
Of course the Athena(?) still sails(?)

Louis cruises is unlucky with new ships but has a collection of 70´s cruiseships that now are classics.

The former RVL trio, although stretched and re-engined at 30 years old still sails strong, 2 of them with Fred Olsen....

this response may-be not what you're hoping for but then again with my nickname i have to give this
opinion

for me it's a matter of letting go, and not holding on, clinging on to a past which is disappearing

i've a lost a baby child and it is not easy to let go
but in the end we all learn we have to let go

so for me I cherish the wonderfull view of a great
old ship but i 'm not mourning when they got scrapped

dead and scrap are part of life and it's better to remember how they were then trying to persist in other age