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» Cruise Talk   » Ocean Liners and Classic Cruise Ships   » Future Disasters At Sea

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Author Topic: Future Disasters At Sea
Will
First Class Passenger
Member # 472

posted 06-07-2000 10:28 AM      Profile for Will   Email Will   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
With all of the renewed interest in trans alantic crossing on huge new ships are we increasing the chances of another great tragedy.

What would happen to a ship like the Grand Princess if it were caught in biq ugly alantic storm.


Posts: 46 | From: Columbus, Ohio | Registered: Jul 99  |  IP: Logged
Terry
First Class Passenger
Member # 448

posted 06-07-2000 01:28 PM      Profile for Terry   Email Terry   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
People will be Shaken AND Stirred. And a lot of things will be broken, but the ships are all fully seaworthy and are unlikely to come to any harm unless they are unlucky and get some other serious problem at the same time.

The reason it doesn't happen very often is that weather reporting and forecasting is so much better than it used to be and you can try to be in some other place when a hurricane hits.

But you make a good point, some day, some place one of the new meag ships is going to come to grief, let's hope the emergency drills turn out to be effective.

Terry


Posts: 391 | From: Brandon, Norfolk, UK | Registered: Aug 99  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 06-07-2000 05:12 PM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hi will, well at present their is still only one ship which regularly undertakes the transatlantic route - the QE2. So I don't think that disasters are very likely at all.

The Grand Princess was not built for Transatlantic crossings, she's a fair weather ship. That's why she will probably never be sent across the Atlantic anyway!

However, if the Grand Princess was caught in a storm, the passengers would certainly experience some discomfort. Rather than cut through the sea, today's flat bottomed giants would 'slap' there way. I would imagine that some damage would be sustained to the fixtures, fittings and even the thin hull and superstructure?

When modern cruise ships are repositioned across the Atlantic to Europe, they normally take a longer more sheltered route. They only attempt it before or after the winter. Only the QE2 makes the direct crossing between Southampton and NY, regularly throughout the year, including October, November and December.

Even the QE2 has sustained damage to her superstructure during storms. A few years back she received a large dent under the bridge, when she was hit by a massive wave.

Much of the cost of building the QM2 will be a strong superstructure and the traditional hull, constructed in one piece and made of extra thick steel.

The France (Norway) was of course originally constructed for the Transtlantic trip too.


Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 06-07-2000 05:15 PM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I forgot to mention:

The big risk at sea is not so much the 'sea' itself i.e. storms, but from fire onboard. Hence, the tight safety regulations these days.


Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
gohaze
First Class Passenger
Member # 586

posted 06-07-2000 08:52 PM      Profile for gohaze   Email gohaze   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Malcolm...we were on the Grand Princess on her first repo from Barcelona to New York via the Azores and the weather was miserable most of the trip...max about force 8.
She had a funny sort of motion as she rally wasn't pitching into the seas - she's too long, but every now and again she would slam one with a bang and then do a shimmy. If you were in one of the long alleyways when it happened you could feel it, then if there was someone ahead of you you could see them shake, and a few seconds later feel it yourself.
You're right on that cruise ships are built for fine weather, for obvious reasons, to attract passengers for a holiday. Why spend a lot of money for strengh and restrictive designs that you are not going to use.
After all, the QE2 was only secondly designed for cruising and really is not that good a design for either crossing or cruising, except that the hull was designed for the Western Ocean...compare the fine bow to the blunt(above the water) ones on cruise ships.
Who would want to run a cruise ship on the Western Ocean in the winter anyway. I was brought up on that ocean as a youngster, 12 months of the year, and quite frankly you can keep it anytime. Fog,ice, and hurricanes in the summer, storms the rest of the year.Yuck....peter

Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 06-08-2000 08:19 AM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Gohase, one of the Captains of the QE2 is on record as saying that "the QE2 hull design is so good that she cuts better through the sea, and can sustain speed for longer than the QM or QE could".
Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
Cambodge
First Class Passenger
Member # 906

posted 06-08-2000 09:03 AM      Profile for Cambodge   Email Cambodge   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There is much wisdom in the observations above. However, a scenario.

Hurricanes:
The Carib is full of huge, slab-sided floating boxes. One of these days a hurricane and one of them will come together. Remember the Nordic Prince in St. Thomas a few years back! You can always run, but some times you cannot hide!

Fires: Yes there is safety in new designs, but a multilingual crew not speaking even a common language has caused serious problems in the past and could be a significant problem in a major disaster such as collision with a tanker. This has happened before.

[This message has been edited by Cambodge (edited 06-08-2000).]


Posts: 2149 | From: St. Michaels MD USA , the town that fooled the British! | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
gohaze
First Class Passenger
Member # 586

posted 06-08-2000 09:18 AM      Profile for gohaze   Email gohaze   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cambodge...when was there a collision between a cruiseship and a tanker ??

You're right about fires and for that matter, all emergency procedures on ships and ashore. There is nothing to beat GOOD LEADERSHIP and proper training. I'm quite frankly more concerned about the officers than about the crew. With all the new ships coming on stream the pool of EXPERIENCED officers must be getting pretty small....peter


Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged
Cambodge
First Class Passenger
Member # 906

posted 06-08-2000 11:25 AM      Profile for Cambodge   Email Cambodge   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A cruise ship, I don't know. But a passenger ship (possibly even a ferry)yes, a few years ago, if I remember the TV news reports. Between the Channel and the Straits of Malacca there is much passage-sharing between passenger vessels and tankships. I merely observe that it is possible!
Posts: 2149 | From: St. Michaels MD USA , the town that fooled the British! | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Vaccaro
First Class Passenger
Member # 465

posted 06-08-2000 01:42 PM      Profile for Vaccaro   Author's Homepage   Email Vaccaro   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
...speaking about collision, we should not forget the spectacular one between NORVEGIAN DREAM and a containers ship in the Channel last year.
Posts: 1193 | From: France ...where the greatest liners ever are born, ...by far! | Registered: Feb 99  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 06-08-2000 06:00 PM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Norwegian Dream, last year:

For more details see my posting 8/28/99 in the 'Ocean Liner' section.

[This message has been edited by Malcolm (edited 06-08-2000).]


Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
Guest
First Class Passenger
Member # 1157

posted 06-08-2000 10:24 PM      Profile for Guest        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
QE2 is the only ship Id trust on an Atlantic Crossing. She has such a strong hull that she can sustain the roughness of the Atlantic.

QE2's bow plates were slightly damaged in 1998 when she hit a 90 foot wave, but it was nothing substntial.

Its a fact that in the last refit, QE2 was given 9 new plates on her bow to allow for 30 more years of trans Atlantic crossings.

QM2 is , as Malcolm has pointed out - costing so much because Cunrad wish for her to be as strong as QE2.

A ship like Grand Princess would probably snap in two (down her GRAND ATRIUM) if a 90 foot Atlantic wave in the middle of a cyclone hit her.... For one they don't have the bow for slicing through the water like QE2 has, and also they aren't streamlined ships.

[This message has been edited by joe at travelpage (edited 06-08-2000).]


Posts: 1888 | From: Earth | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Ryndam
First Class Passenger
Member # 1315

posted 06-09-2000 07:29 AM      Profile for Ryndam   Email Ryndam   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In 1992 (I'm not sure about the date) the Italian Ferry "Moby Prince" had a collision with the tanker "Agip Abruzzo" out of the port of Leghorn. The fire which follows the collision causes the death of all but one the 142 persons on board. In my opinion the main risk on board a cruise ship is fire, but a lot of devices ore fitted to prevent and fight it. Ships are divided in main vertical zones in order to confine the fire; there are smoke detectors, hydrants, sprinklers, hi-fog and extinguisher throughout the ship. The engine room is protected with CO2 and the crew is fully equipped to fight the fire.
Posts: 260 | From: Genoa (Italy) | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Vaccaro
First Class Passenger
Member # 465

posted 06-09-2000 09:33 AM      Profile for Vaccaro   Author's Homepage   Email Vaccaro   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes Ryndam, this is indeed another example of a collision between a passengers ship and a tanker. It took place on April 11th 1991.
Here's a picture of the ship after the fire:

And of course, lets remember perhaps the most serious collision between a tanker and a cruise ship (serious because 423 lost), the ADMIRAL NAKHIMOV (ex-BERLIN 1925, a 61 year old liner) which collided with a soviet tanker and sank in the Black Sea on August 31th 1986.

Bye.


Posts: 1193 | From: France ...where the greatest liners ever are born, ...by far! | Registered: Feb 99  |  IP: Logged
Ryndam
First Class Passenger
Member # 1315

posted 06-09-2000 12:52 PM      Profile for Ryndam   Email Ryndam   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Vaccaro,
the ferry in the picture you've posted is the "Moby Prince" I've mentioned before (I couldn't remember very well the date). After almost ten years nobody knows what really happened. It was a foggy night but with the modern radars that can't be the cause; they've talked about an explosion on the ferry before the collision and about a mysterious boat between the ferry and the tanker. Mysteriously the U.S. satellites covering the area (there is a U.S. air force base near Leghorn) were not working that night. In my opinion that accident will never have an explanation.

Posts: 260 | From: Genoa (Italy) | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Vaccaro
First Class Passenger
Member # 465

posted 06-09-2000 01:40 PM      Profile for Vaccaro   Author's Homepage   Email Vaccaro   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, Ryndam, that's the MOBY PRINCE of course. When I said "yes, this is indeed another example of a collision...", I spoke about the example you gave us, the MOBY PRINCE. And that's the reason why I posted the picture.

At this time,I have no other information about the real causes of the accident.
I collected the few press articles when it happened (I haven't them now) and indeed there was a mystery about the veritable circumstances of the collision.
If I remember well, there were even problems to tow the ship during a while and the wreck was a danger for the traffic. I wonder (but I'm not sure) if there even were not difficulties and several attempts to sank the ship?
I should search informations but I'm afraid I haven't them here.
But maybe you could be able to remember me (and us) what the wreck became. Thank you.

[This message has been edited by Vaccaro (edited 06-09-2000).]


Posts: 1193 | From: France ...where the greatest liners ever are born, ...by far! | Registered: Feb 99  |  IP: Logged
Paddy
First Class Passenger
Member # 357

posted 06-09-2000 08:28 PM      Profile for Paddy   Email Paddy   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cambodge, what exactly happened to the Nordic Prince in Bermuda a few years back? I have never heard anything about this.

What exactly happens to a liner after a serious fire? I am thinking about the Achille Lauro, and to a lesser extent the Ecstasy wich was burnt a few years ago.


Posts: 763 | From: Belfast, Ireland | Registered: Aug 99  |  IP: Logged
Peter P
First Class Passenger
Member # 374

posted 06-11-2000 03:06 PM      Profile for Peter P     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fire can be huge problem when ship is in the midle of Atlantic.

I guess there some sea laws but those companies aint paying taxes and stuff so why should they get any help when they have troubles?


Posts: 329 | From: Finland | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged
gohaze
First Class Passenger
Member # 586

posted 06-11-2000 07:14 PM      Profile for gohaze   Email gohaze   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm sorry but what is the connection between paying taxes and a fire at sea....peter
Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged
Peter P
First Class Passenger
Member # 374

posted 06-12-2000 02:26 PM      Profile for Peter P     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh...sorry gohaze

My point was that ships are registerd to...well you know. If something bad happens they expect help from USA or where ever they r cruising then.

So they dont pay anything to but expect(?) services from other countryes.

I think this tax/labourer issue could be whole new topic.


Posts: 329 | From: Finland | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged
gohaze
First Class Passenger
Member # 586

posted 06-27-2000 11:48 PM      Profile for gohaze   Email gohaze   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
For you QE2 fans...have a look at www.open.gov.uk/maib/sd297/pl.htm#1 it doesn't name the ship but there is only one that has a 'full service speed' of 28kts. The comments of the Marine Accident Investigation Board are not very flattering....peter

[This message has been edited by gohaze (edited 06-28-2000).]


Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged
Vaccaro
First Class Passenger
Member # 465

posted 06-28-2000 03:08 AM      Profile for Vaccaro   Author's Homepage   Email Vaccaro   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm sorry Gohaze but the page you linked is no longer available (page not found error) for me.
Have you saved it or would you sum up it here in this forum please?
Thank you. Bye.

Posts: 1193 | From: France ...where the greatest liners ever are born, ...by far! | Registered: Feb 99  |  IP: Logged
gohaze
First Class Passenger
Member # 586

posted 06-28-2000 06:34 AM      Profile for gohaze   Email gohaze   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hi..try it now, it seems to be working OK...peter
Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged
Green
First Class Passenger
Member # 171

posted 06-28-2000 02:37 PM      Profile for Green     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Vaccaro - the Ryndam was only built in '94 - do believe it was a HAL ship - we had neighbours on board - the hit was right next to their cabin - was it one of the N ships?

Will see if I can find out.


Posts: 2913 | From: Markham, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jul 99  |  IP: Logged

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