I think that Princess would have filled a gap still in the RCI world and made them a ton of money. They are very much a cash cow. Princess at that time was on the decline and lacked direction.

Now I believe the Princess is in better hands with CCL, which when they were bought I would have NEVER said. Princess is finding their way again and CCL is much better at marketing to segments then RCI is. Celebrity has slipped in the past few years (Solstice excluded), but CCL has let Princess find their way and while the Grand Class may not be the lines of the Voyager or Solstice, people keep coming back to Princess for great service, good food, outstanding itineraries and the best loyality program afloat.

There is certainly evidence small lines can survive. The likes of Fred. Olsen, Saga and a few other lines that run out of the UK are a testemant to that. P&O and Princess would have had to have been in a better position than them.

Looking at Princess in the past they appear to have been building up quite a fleet prior to the merger and P&O was expanding, they had created Ocean Villlage.

I often wonder had P&O Princess not merged what would they be like now. They had P&O UK, P&O Australia, Princess, Ocean Village and Swan Hellenic. Thats a large fleet.

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Originally posted by Sutho:

Could P&O Princess have survived alone?
Were they in financial difficulty at the time or on the brink of collapse?

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Oh I think absolutely. This was my hope for Princess, not to be swallowed up by RCCL or Carnival Corp. Having Princess remain separate would have been better for the industry and consumers alike. It promotes healthy competition and innovation. Princess was a strong 3rd place brand, growing with ship orders and financially successful. They were in a much better position compared to NCL, who was in 4th at the time. This is why both RCCL and Carnival Corp. wanted the brand so badly. Princess was quite a catch and had the reputation of being very well run with a very strong past passenger base.

The benefit to Princess of becoming just another "brand" under a corporate umbrella was one, to make it's stockholders very wealthy, and two, to accelerate growth with the additional capital behind them. Princess played both Carnival Corp. and RCCL very well against each other, not laying all the cards on the table until the very end.

Anyway, I was very disappointed when the purchase was permitted. Both RCCL and Carnival were very persuasive in convincing regulators that the cruise industry is really just part of the far larger tourism/vacation industry, in which case it would not give either brand a monopoly in the industry. It did in fact provide Carnival Corp. a +50% market share in the cruise industry, but still a very small overall percent in the much larger tourism/vacation industry.

Princess has sort of become a "non-brand" to me. They are a great overall cruise line, but there is really nothing about them that compels me to book a cruise on them. Too bad. At one time there were my favorite cruise line afloat.

Had RCI managed to pull it off (and once Carnival was in the game that was obviously not going to happen and indeed it may well be that Dingle always wanted a Carnival deal) P&O/Princess would have held the majority of shares and board members, so the question then arises would David Dingle have actually taken over from Richard Fain and if so where would Fain be now ?

For this reason I am particularly intrigued by the announcement of the two Princess new builds @ 139K tonne range. This will say an awful lot to me about the future of the Princess Brand. Will these ships be variants of the Grand Class, a clean sheet design or yet another variant of Carnival proper, i.e. a Dream Class ship?

What is almost more intriguing to me is what Princess might look like in terms of design features on her new ships if RCCL had been successful. In my opinion whether you like them or not they are always raising the bar across all their brands trying to build innovation into their ship designs. The Voyager, Freedom, Oasis, & Solstice class ships are all evidenced by this.

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Originally posted by mike sa:
Ernie is certainly very right in what he says, Princess had been my favourite but no more. It is so ordinary now and in some respects disappointing - food for instance.

Had RCI managed to pull it off (and once Carnival was in the game that was obviously not going to happen and indeed it may well be that Dingle always wanted a Carnival deal) P&O/Princess would have held the majority of shares and board members, so the question then arises would David Dingle have actually taken over from Richard Fain and if so where would Fain be now ?

Given Princess' less "risky" attitude to debt we may never have seen a Oasis OTS ? Or perhaps they would have had so much cash we might have seen 10 ?

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I think it would have remained much the status quo. As Princess and RCCL basically would held equal shares and equal number of board member seats, not much would have changed.

Princess would have continued thier expansion with the addition of Grand-Class ships just as they did under Carnival ownership.

Peter Ratcliffe, who was the COO-designate and Fain was the CEO-designate, so Dingle would not have been anywhere in the picture.

Given that Nick Luff was to assume the reigns as CFO, I imagine he would have been in line behind Ratcliffe who was due to retire.

With Luff at the financial helm, I think you would have seen a more tempered, moderate approach to RCCL's expansion and thus, the Oasis would never have come into being, that being the biggest change.

As for Celebrity, I think you would have seen a more progressive and more forward thinking approach.

Princess' two R-class ships would have been moved into the Celebrity fleet and their newbuilds would have been more in line with the current Millennium-Class, albeit with more restaurants and a more destination-intensive approach.

Princess were fabled, and rightfully so, for their marketing and financial prowess and in the end, would have emerged on top of the financial structure, though Fain would have remained.

You would also never have seen RCCL make the mistake of buying Pullmantur or entering into some of their seemingly ill-advised ventures such as CDF or TUI Cruises.

Princess at this time would have benefitted from Fain and Co's more progressive and daring approach to shipbuilding and thus, you would have seen more evolution in the Grand-Class.

In the end, had this happened, the Princess/RCCL combo would be posting signifigant earnings and not struggling to achieve investment-grade status on The Street.

That's my prediction.

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Originally posted by sunviking82:
A very interesting question. I am a Princess loyalest (and under 50 thank you) and have been for quite sometime. I was excited when RCI was going to merge with them since I enjoyed RCCL and Celebrity both as well.

I think that Princess would have filled a gap still in the RCI world and made them a ton of money. They are very much a cash cow. Princess at that time was on the decline and lacked direction.

Now I believe the Princess is in better hands with CCL, which when they were bought I would have NEVER said. Princess is finding their way again and CCL is much better at marketing to segments then RCI is. Celebrity has slipped in the past few years (Solstice excluded), but CCL has let Princess find their way and while the Grand Class may not be the lines of the Voyager or Solstice, people keep coming back to Princess for great service, good food, outstanding itineraries and the best loyality program afloat.

As much as people on this board like to slam CCL vs RCI, the truth is Princess is better off as a brand with CCL, but would have been a financial win for RCI if they had merged.

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I agree 100%. I think for both it would have been a win - win situation. At the time......

In regards to RCI, it would have been an interesting merger. Looking at RCI today I would say it would not have been a good thing for them. RCI is the type of brand that thrives on "ground breaking", "innovative" ships like Oasis (thats their advertising) Now with other brands takng up funds for those innovative ships, they couldn't build them.

Another thing, if RCI had won I beleive the food quality all across the board would have been bad. Compared to other brands today their food quality is bad.

I think Carnival was the right choice.

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Originally posted by Cam J:

Another thing, if RCI had won I beleive the food quality all across the board would have been bad. Compared to other brands today their food quality is bad.

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??? What a broad statement. It's like saying because Carnival Corp. owns Princess and HAL, they will have tacky decor just like Carnival Cruise Lines.

RCCL owns Celebrity and the food is quite good, certainly better than Princess IMO. My understanding is the food on Azamara is pretty decent as well, after some initial teething pains.

I sailed on OASIS in January. The food was decent. Not spectacular but decent. Just last week I sailed on QM2. Again the food was decent, but don't ask me if I remember any particular meal because I don't. It was all pretty good but nothing stood out as truly exceptional, like the best dish I ever had. Like all large cruise ships, it's mass-produced banquet style food, not exactly made to order. There is only so much you can do with it.

Ernie

[ 05-05-2010: Message edited by: eroller ]

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Originally posted by Malcolm @ cruisepage:

If you are lucky enough to be in a Cunard Grill, the food is all cooked freahly and it goes from pan to plate very quickly.

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I've sailed in Princess Grill and the food and service were excellent. More in line with Silversea IMO. Unfortunately this time it was steerage on the QM2. Britannia on Cunard is much like any typical mass-market experience. Very good but not especially memorable.

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Originally posted by eroller:

??? What a broad statement.

RCCL owns Celebrity and the food is quite good, certainly better than Princess IMO. My understanding is the food on Azamara is pretty decent as well, after some initial teething pains.

I sailed on OASIS the food was decent. Not spectacular but decent. Just last week I sailed on QM2. Again the food was decent, but don't ask me if I remember any particular meal.
Ernie

[ 05-05-2010: Message edited by: eroller ]

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I cant speak about Celebrity, Cunard or Azamara but I can speak about RCL and the food quality on board is below par.The specialty resturants are pretty good though.

Having cruised on the Oasis back in January, I found the main dining room food to be good. Not great but the same as I have experienced on Carnival and NCL and past RCI cruises. Mass produced banquet food. Each of those lines do something a little better than the others but in the end, they all average out in the dining department.

The specialty dining on the Oasis was very good. Food is not my main reason for cruising. It is the overall experience. Of course, maybe I made a mistake and will just have to try them all again in two weeks.

[ 05-05-2010: Message edited by: Atlcruiser ]

[ 05-05-2010: Message edited by: Atlcruiser ]

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Originally posted by Atlcruiser:

Mass produced banquet food. Each of those lines do something a little better than the others but in the end, they all average out in the dining department.

[ 05-05-2010: Message edited by: Atlcruiser ]

[ 05-05-2010: Message edited by: Atlcruiser ]

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I never thought i'd say this but I agree with you Gordon.

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Originally posted by Malcolm @ cruisepage:

If you are lucky enough to be in a Cunard Grill, the food is all cooked freahly and it goes from pan to plate very quickly.

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