Welcome to Cruise Talk the Internet's most popular discussion forum dedicated to cruising. Stop by Cruise Talk anytime to post a message or find out what your fellow passengers and industry insiders are saying about a particular ship, cruise line or destination.
>>> Reader Reviews >>> CruisePage.com Photo Gallery >>> Join Our Cruise Club.
Latest News...Norwegian Cruise Line celebrated the debut of the all-new Norwegian Aqua to Port Canaveral, Fla. on Saturday, April 26, 2025, where she commenced her inaugural season of round-trip Caribbean cruises as the newest ship in port. This past weekend, approximately 3,700 guests embarked on Norwegian Aqua's first week-long voyage to the Caribbean from Port Canaveral, Fla., her initial homeport ...
Latest News...Royal Caribbean Group (NYSE: RCL) today reported first quarter Earnings per Share ("EPS") of $2.70 and Adjusted EPS of $2.71. These results were better than the company's guidance due to stronger than expected pricing on close-in demand and lower costs mainly due to timing. Royal Caribbean said that it is increasing its full year 2025 Adjusted EPS guidance to $14.55 to $15.55...
Latest News...Holland America Line announced itineraries for its two Grand Voyages sailing in 2027, offering guests the choice to embark on an ambitious 129-day circumnavigation of the globe on the 2027 Grand World Voyage or a 70-day, region-specific in-depth exploration on the Grand South America & Antarctica Voyage. As revealed today by the cruise line's president Beth Bodensteiner to guests on board...
While obviously a goodly number of people booking the big 3 will be Spanish the majority aare expected to be from the US, UK and other Euro countries.
So what is happening at Pullmantur ? One would have thought they would be moving Sovereign's sisters to take advantage of the huge growth.
Another point to raise, I looked at booking a cruise on Pullmantur, they don't exactly make it easy for people in the US to do, booking on RCI, NCL or CCL is just a matter of logging into my account and booking the room.
They may very well be targeting US and UK passengers.
A ship homeporting out of Barcelona can be more attractive to the UK market than one operating out of Southampton.
quote:Originally posted by cruisemole:What makes you think these NCL and RCL ships operating out of Spain will be targeting the Spanish market? They may very well be targeting US and UK passengers.A ship homeporting out of Barcelona can be more attractive to the UK market than one operating out of Southampton.
That is the point and as I mentioned most of the pax for the big ships are likely to come from overseas not Spain. Which raises the point of my query, if RCI themselves expect at least 60% growth in the Spanish market why then are they not trying to take of advantage of it by adding more ships especially as Carnival at IberoCrusous is ?
quote:Originally posted by cruisemole:What makes you think these NCL and RCL ships operating out of Spain will be targeting the Spanish market? They may very well be targeting US and UK passengers.
The US economy? The firms are moving tonnage to Europe to get away from the weakness in the USA. Sure they will get some Americans aboard but clearly they also hope to attract a larger more diverse European audience as well.
Pullmantur is primarily a Spanish company market to the Spanish not the International market. RCI, NCL will be marketing more in the USA, UK and internationally.
As to why has Pullmantur not added ships, I would say that question is better directed to Royal Caribbean's boardroom than Spain. I seem to recall that Royal Caribbean has told shareholders that Pullmantur's yields have been weak, weaker than Royal Caribbean so it is likely a financial decision by the parent and not Pullmantur's choice.
quote:Originally posted by SSTRAVELER:The US economy? The firms are moving tonnage to Europe to get away from the weakness in the USA. Sure they will get some Americans aboard but clearly they also hope to attract a larger more diverse European audience as well.
Can they really project the US economy that far in advance? I am sure no one though 18 months ago that the world economy would collapse like it did. Maybe by next summer the economy will have rebounded well enough? Did I miss something or arent these just 'new' competitive seasonal redeployments? They arent moving there year round are they? I mean they had to go somewhere for the summer and the Caribbean would otherwise have plenty of other CCL and RCI Florida departures inlcuding both the ALLURE and OASIS.
And just speculation here, but now that there are so many new, huge, state-of-the-art cruise ships being based in Spain, they are likely to syphon off many potential Pullmantur customers, especially the ones who speak English and are looking for the "best" possible cruising experience.
It all reminds me of the days when we tried to operate Fiesta Marina Cruises, (1993-1994) only to find that a huge percentage of the Spanish-speaking market didn't want the older, hand-me-down ship, and opted to sail on the new ones with the parent company.
Rich
Having sailed on Navigator of the Seas out of Malaga last November, I can vouch for there being over 50% Spanish pax onboard. RCI is marketing itself heavily in Spain - there were many posters and newspaper adverts around Malaga when we were there.
Ken
quote:Originally posted by SSTRAVELER:The US economy? The firms are moving tonnage to Europe to get away from the weakness in the USA.
The US economy? The firms are moving tonnage to Europe to get away from the weakness in the USA.
Or it may be over saturation in the States w/all the new tonnage heading here. US based ships seem to be sailing full even in this depressed economy.
just a thought.
Cam J
quote:Originally posted by Cam J:..... why would anyone in thier right mind cruise on an old, rennovated, past its prime ship when they could sail on a brand spankin new state of the art cruise ship going to the same place like Magic, Epic & Liberty (not so much). just a thought.Cam J
Well, aren't RCI, Celebrity and Carnival currently still sailing similar 'old, rennovated, past its prime ships' from the US????
Because Pullmantur are all-inclusive????
Do you know how much a Spanish family can drink in a week????
just another thought
quote:Originally posted by Cam J:[...]why would anyone in thier right mind cruise on an old, rennovated, past its prime ship when they could sail on a brand spankin new state of the art cruise ship going to the same place like Magic, Epic & Liberty (not so much). just a thought.Cam J
Pullmantur is very much geared towards a Spanish audience - just the language 'barrier' might be a reason for many to choose Pullmantur. Also the itineraries are different and in some cases actually more attractive.
I can think of nothing worse than sailing on one of these blocks of flats with an amusement park and also being stuck on a pontoon with over 5,000 other people !
Cruise ships should have some character which you do find in the older ships !
Two of the best looking older cruise ships these days are the P & O cruise ships Oriana and Aurora !
Nobody was talking about saving anything however quite a number of the older cruise ships and some of the smaller new ships do have class and not the chrome and glass of the modern so called megga cruise ships.
Some do like a cruise ship with class but there is others who would feel lost and out of their depth on one of them !
And not everybody wants to cruise on a giant mega-ship. Maybe they feel more comfortable and at ease on a smaller ship, be it old and past its prime or a more modern newbuild. There are a few of us that wish the ships of Pullmantur were still in the US market. I for one truly enjoy a modern ship about the size of the Nordic Empress and Zenith.
And I am sure their are enough 'pretend snobs' out there that could easily rub 'elbow to elbow' with those who feel at home on a ship that is all about 'class', but maybe they would rather be having a beer and and a hamburger while on vacation.
quote:Originally posted by Neil - Ex P. & O. S. N. Company.:Cam JI can think of nothing worse than sailing on one of these blocks of flats with an amusement park and also being stuck on a pontoon with over 5,000 other people !Cruise ships should have some character which you do find in the older ships !Two of the best looking older cruise ships these days are the P & O cruise ships Oriana and Aurora !
Its personal preference I guess. Some people like to cruise on old outdated ships, some like both, and some like the massive ships. For me personally I like the big ultra modern cruiser but I could still travel on an old bucket as well.
First, the apparent puzzlement that some would choose Pullmantur over an international brand like RCI is, to me, itself puzzling. Pullmantur is obviously a very different animal than RCI, being all-inclusive and primarily Spanish-speaking. When you factor in the all-inclusive pricing, it's extremely cheap (much cheaper than RCI is in Europe), and some people will inevitably prefer to travel surrounded mainly by people who speak their language. It's true that RCI has also independently targeted Spain very strongly, much more so than other mainly English-speaking brands (moving a FREEDOM-class ship to compete with EPIC is, to me, a case of it protecting its turf), but it's not necessarily targeting the same segment of the Spanish market.
I do think the comparison with FiestaMarina is quite interesting, but perhaps the Latin American market was different in that those who could afford or would consider cruising were the upper middle class and above, more likely to speak English and be comfortable in a "foreign" environment, and thus likely choose an "international" ship based on its amenities and maybe even because of the "cosmopolitan" experience. (And FIESTA MARINA was a seriously old ship, much older than Pullmantur's ships are now.) In a developed economy like Spain, cruising would (at least during good economic times) be within reach for most of the population, leaving enough room to offer a product geared towards that market alone, while those who prefer it could still choose "international" brands without being so much of the market as to make a locally oriented one unworkable.
And I really find the whole old vs. new ships argument here rather amusing. I'm quite familiar with most of the Pullmantur fleet (the exception is OCEAN DREAM) and they are neither what they are being derided (old, outdated tubs) or praised (classics) as. Honestly, they're not a whole lot to get excited about either way. Reading this thread it sounds as though the ships being discussed are from the early 1960s, not (mostly) the early 1990s. Actually, these ships have neither the "character" of the "classics" nor the bells and whistles of the latest ships. They're sort of in that no-man's-land of middle age that most things (ships, cars, buildings) go through, though not utterly out of style as some things are at that point. They're modern ships, just not the latest versions. And they are certainly not yet so old as to be completely obsolete, especially if upgraded (which they have been). Given that Pullmantur has tended to target price-conscious first-time cruisers, these ships should still easily be able to deliver an experience that will please its target audience. If one has never been on a cruise ship before I think a vessel like EMPRESS (complete with atrium, multi-deck show lounge and dining room, etc.) is still likely pretty impressive. It's not as though Pullmantur's passengers are likely to have disembarked OASIS OF THE SEAS the week before. And even in the supposed "premier" market, North America, it is not as though ships are instantly obsolesced - Carnival seems to have no trouble with its FANTASY-class ships, which are surely no more modern than most of the Pullmantur fleet, RCI still has two of the three SOVEREIGN-class ships and so on. If these ships are so old that no one would sensibly choose them, what is supposed to happen to them, scrapping in middle age? They certainly have plenty of life left in them. For that matter, this summer Costa is running COSTA MARINA and COSTA ALLEGRA on seven-night cruises in direct competition with new ships (including its own) - surely it would have done something else with them if competition from new ships was so impenetrable. And consider that another line is running the former SONG OF NORWAY (whose new name I already have forgotten) in Spain - compared to that, Pullmantur's ships look state-of-the-art.
All that does not mean that buying Pullmantur was necessarily the right choice (certainly, the recession hit Spain very hard, and RCI could and does compete strongly in Spain, alone among non-European brands for the moment), but nor was it an obviously wrong choice, nor is it some sort of fool's errand to sell cruises on older ships in countries that also happen to have newer ones. Indeed, had RCCL not bought Pullmantur, the obvious thing would be to place its older ships in emerging markets under the RCI flag (not so much Celebrity), but if RCI's new ships are going to be in those same markets, then perhaps the differentiation isn't a bad idea. I do wonder what the all-inclusive business does to margins though, given the combination of low fares and, it would seem likely, drastically reduced on-board spend.
quote:Originally posted by Cunard Fan:Personally I would love to sail on old and new ships. I love both kinds!
Even before Premiere, Dolphin, and Seawind Cruise Lines were around I had no desire to cruise on the 'classics'. I could appreciate their history and unique design heritages, and I could see that they were attractive ships, I just couldn't bring myself to book onto any of them. I am sure it was my loss.
I blossomed late when it came to actually going on cruise ships compared to many of our veterans here at CT. I had actually seen plenty of cruise ships while in the US Navy cruising around the Caribbean in the 70's-80's, even got to tour a good number of them because back then all I had to do was walk up and show my Military ID and it got me onboard. Being stationed in Norfolk, Philadelphia, and San Francisco I witnessed a good number of them going to and from various area shipyards and leaving on cruises, and living in Naples, Italy for two years I saw an amazing lineup of classic ships come through.
I took vacations to Miami and NYC in the 70's and 80's just to see the ships. Miami with the Emerald Seas, the Holiday and Celebration back to back, the pre-Norway NCL fleet all lined up was quite a sight back then.
I got to tour the ssNorway twice, and even though I knew her heritage as the historic ssFrance, had no real pressing desire to cruise her. Same for QE2, which I first saw in Norfolk.
But by time I really 'got onboard' with cruises there seemed to be an explosion of new ships; the Holiday triplets, Crown/Regal Princess, Horizon/Zenith, Statendam-, Sovereign- and Fantasy-class ships were flourishing and I preferred the newer ships to the older ones and really never looked back. Well, maybe once to cruise the Royal Princess before she left for P&O. And once I really got started I was doing 3-4 cruises a year and couldn't stop.
I guess not having 'started' with the classics probably makes me a little less appreciative of them when it's time for them to go.
quote:Originally posted by dmwnc1:But by time I really 'got onboard' with cruises there seemed to be an explosion of new ships; the Holiday triplets, Crown/Regal Princess, Horizon/Zenith, Statendam-, Sovereign- and Fantasy-class ships were flourishing and I preferred the newer ships to the older ones and really never looked back. Well, maybe once to cruise the Royal Princess before she left for P&O.
To me the "classics" are really the ships built before 1970. (And the 1960s-built NCL ships don't count. They're ferries!) The only exception is VISTAFJORD, a half-sister of a ship built in 1965.
Today very, very few ships from that era (now over 40 years old) remain in service. Ten years ago, there were loads. It is rather amazing to contemplate how many of these "classic" ships one could sail in even in 2000 that are no longer in service.
quote:Originally posted by dmwnc1:I guess not having 'started' with the classics probably makes me a little less appreciative of them when it's time for them to go.
I would almost say it was the opposite for me: I didn't "start" with the classics, but "starting" as a young child because your parents took you on a cruise is obviously different than doing so as an adult when you could sail in whatever kind of ship you wanted. In my context, new ships were relatively "known" and ordinary. Since my parents favored newer ships, old ships were exotic and therefore interesting.
At least, that was probably how it started. Whatever the reason, I now have an ingrained taste for ships built before 1970. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate new ships, and indeed I have never only liked old ones. At the same time, the nature of my ship obsession has evolved - or maybe that the obsession is still the same but now there are other knowledge and interests that can bleed over into it. It's interesting to contemplate to what extent my former boyish wonder is still the kernel of how I think about ships, and ... now I'm thinking about ships in metaphorical romantic terms, but I think I'll stop here. I'm getting too existential, even for a sleepless 4:30 AM....
Ultimate Bulletin BoardTM 6.1.0.3
More Vacation & Cruise Specials...