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What drove Princess' downgrade to mass... mega-sized ships? the Sitmar merger? Carnival ownership? monotonous interior designs?
What do you think it would take to restore the line's reputation to it's glory days of the 80s when you felt pride to be sailing Princess versus NCL, RCCL, Carnival or even HAL?
You're a smart group... you probably figured that out.
[ 09-16-2009: Message edited by: lasuvidaboy ]
Princess was firmly a mass-market product by the time Carnival bought them.
They inched closer to mass market with the Sun Princess Class and jumped the fence and put both feet in that arena with the introduction of the Grand Princess and that class becoming the core of the fleet.
Tim
quote:Originally posted by Tim in 'Lauderdale:Guys,Princess was firmly a mass-market product by the time Carnival bought them.
Exactly. SUN PRINCESS was the largest cruise ship in the world when she was introduced. Hard to believe today but it's true. The Grand Class was also designed and a few built well before Carnival ever came along.
Once Princess acquired Sitmar, which was really only for two purposes (the 3 new ships & the Circolo membership list), their direction was sealed. They decided they wanted to become a large, more mass-market line. Where Princess left off, Crystal Cruises picked up.
Ernie
After the RCI/Carinval battle Princess stagnated. Service was still very good, better then most, but food and ships were just okay. In the past 3 years however with the launching of the Crown Princess (the 3rd) things have begun to change and Princess is focusing on the 40 - 60 set (with or without children). Their ships are becoming more like classic upscale resorts. Free lemonade is back (YEAH), adult only areas and a truely premium spa experience. The entertainment still needs work (too many jugglers), but the production shows are improving (thank you Carnival) and MUTS is great (yes more people like it then hate it and it's fun evening for a change). Persoal Choice Dinning was prefected on Princess (NCL started it but is just now figuring out how not to piss off their passengers) and Crown Grill and Sabitinni's are great dinning experiences. Chilled towels, h'orderves(sp - never could spell it) in the evening, the addition of the Internatal Cafe (alsmost everything is free btw) and Vines has improved the experience a great deal.
Princess is not gimicky like Carnival, RCI or Celebrity and it more youthful then HAL. They had been listening to their repeat passengers (10 in 12 years) and after a few dark years (2000 - 2005) have began to right the ship (sorry had to be said). I sail on Celebrity too and think that the two products are prety close (Princess is rising, Celebrity has fallen a bit).
Times are changing and so our the cruiselines. Let's face it RCI is not RCCL anymore. The Sun Viking crowd would like favor Oasis of the Seas. Princess will never be the Love Boat or the Royal Princess again, but they won't be Carinval either.
quote:Originally posted by Tim in 'Lauderdale:Guys,Princess was firmly a mass-market product by the time Carnival bought them. They inched closer to mass market with the Sun Princess Class and jumped the fence and put both feet in that arena with the introduction of the Grand Princess and that class becoming the core of the fleet. Tim
I was on Nautica last week and it reminded me a lot of Island and Pacific Princess. Crowd, Food, Service and atmosphere. I suppose Princess must have changed a lot since I worked there 20 years ago
Reint
Unfortunately being part of Carnival is detrimental to some premium cruise lines where Carnival holds the same narrow minded dogmatic view that in order to make money all cruises must be short booze cruises. As a result people are seeing HAL being turned into mass market and also Cunard. There is definately a market for premium cruising or lines like Crystal, Regent and Silverseas would not exist. It appears that Carnival is too timid to even dare enter the premium market.
I can understand what people are saying about Princess being a bit better than the standard mass market lines and hope that it stays like it. I personally am the type of cruise passenger that enjoys mass market but a bit more up market with interesting destinations and spacious ships.
Along with that is the constant announcements, seriously, the art auction stuff needs to stop or at least be toned down.
The food has improved greatly in the last year, though there are some ships that could really do with a total makeover in the Sterling steak house.
Just to touch on the Carnival comment, I have to wonder how many people have been on Carnival in the last 3-4 years ?
Carnival itself has moved up market, the bedding is very good, the food is good, the shows are good, in fact, take a Carnival ship, dress it up like a Princess ship and I would be a happy camper.
The 3-4 day Carnival (and RCCL for that fact) are still booze cruises, but the 7 day cruises really are not, yes certainly Carnival is not for everyone, but neither is RCL or NCL, different strokes and all that
The food and service was exemplary. Oceania offers the best of the old Princess with the personalized service and the best of Cunard's high culture cruise format.
Which one of their ships and during what time frame would you have considered Princess Cruises PREMIUM?
quote:Originally posted by dmwnc1:Which one of their ships and during what time frame would you have considered Princess Cruises PREMIUM?
Both ISLAND & PACIFIC PRINCESS during the 1970s were premium products for their time, compared to Carnival, NCL, and RCCL. Just look at the cruise fares in old brochures, very pricey (adjusted for inflation, comparable to Oceania's fares today.) So they weren't just another "me too" upstart cruise line, their on-board service and food were very good.
Rich
quote:Originally posted by Linerrich:Both ISLAND & PACIFIC PRINCESS during the 1970s were premium products for their time, compared to Carnival, NCL, and RCCL. Just look at the cruise fares in old brochures, very pricey (adjusted for inflation, comparable to Oceania's fares today.) So they weren't just another "me too" upstart cruise line, their on-board service and food were very good.Rich
In comparison, during this same time frame, what other cruise lines would you have considered Premium along with Princess? For some reason I never really thought of the Pacific Princess as 'premium' but the only images I have of her are from The Love Boat series. Must not have been an accurate reflection of her?
quote:Originally posted by dmwnc1:In comparison, during this same time frame, what other cruise lines would you have considered Premium along with Princess? For some reason I never really thought of the Pacific Princess as 'premium' but the only images I have of her are from The Love Boat series. Must not have been an accurate reflection of her?
Probably the closest contenders in the '70s would have been Holland America Cruises (so-named during those years) and Royal Cruise Line. Remember, there really was no designation of a "premium" cruise line; traditionally a cruise was a luxury vacation, and the new mass-market cruise lines, Carnival, NCL, and RCCL brought that luxury to the everyman.
Of course there were still very luxury-class operations: Swedish American Line, Norwegian America Line, and the new upstart Royal Viking Line. These would be comparable to today's Seabourn and SilverSea, for example.
The early Princess ships may not have seemed luxurious, but in the '70s they were very new, very topical, and offered all the modcons, compared to a vast cruise fleet of old, converted tonnage. It was especially the "soft ware" which made Princess a premium, cut-above in those days, and that even carried through the mid-1980s.
I think that on the two ships the cabin service was equal, so perfect. It's the same for the shows (more visual on MSC than Princess due to the differents langages)
The two ships are in very good condition, the staff smiling.
If the food on MSC Splendida was good, i think that the food on Emerald Princess was very good and we prefer the Anything Dining system than the two services.
So, for us, it was two greats cruises. MSC and Princess are mass market.
quote:Originally posted by Linerrich:Remember, there really was no designation of a "premium" cruise line; traditionally a cruise was a luxury vacation...Rich
I do remember back then looking at cruises thinking they would always be out of my reach, and maybe not my cup of tea.
quote:Originally posted by Linerrich:...the new mass-market cruise lines, Carnival, NCL, and RCCL brought that luxury to the everyman.
And I am grateful for this move. Otherwise what would crusing be like today if it was still marketed like it was prior to this move towards mass market?
RVL, HAL, CGT, and Cunard were out of financial reach especially with 5 kids along.
Stella Oceanis was only 2 kids in tow since my older siblings were not interested. Sun Line felt very swank to me.
Question?
Was Greek Line considered the Carnival of the day?
Where was Sun Line with the Stella's positioned?
quote:Originally posted by desirod7:Question?Was Greek Line considered the Carnival of the day?Where was Sun Line with the Stella's positioned?
Greek Line, if we're talking about her cruises (not transatlantic service) I guess could be compared to Carnival. They were warm, friendly and familiar with pax., and catered to families with kids. They also ran a number of singles cruises, too, and were known as somewhat of a party cruise line.
Sun Line would be classified as "premium", with smaller ships, deluxe service and usually more exotic itineraries. I wouldn't place them in the top luxury end, but they were certainly priced and operated at a level above most of the others.
[ 09-19-2009: Message edited by: dougnewman ]
quote:Originally posted by Dutch:What do you think it would take to restore the line's reputation to it's glory days of the 80s when you felt pride to be sailing Princess versus NCL, RCCL, Carnival or even HAL?
Mind you, RCCL was already a big step above Carnival (or at least sold itself as such, and charged much higher fares). At least up until the 1990s Carnival sold "fun," whereas RCCL sold a very mass-market kind of "sophistication." NCL seemed to want to be RCCL, but couldn't keep up with the size and modernity of the RCCL ships.
RCCL always saw itself as the "premium" line out of the Miami lines - not that that is saying much since the "quality" ships rarely used Miami anyway. And then Princess saw itself as above all the Miami lines - again, quite true.
So RCCL/RCI and Princess both moved "down market" (Princess more so, having had farther to fall) while Carnival has done the opposite.
quote:Originally posted by Sutho:Unfortunately being part of Carnival is detrimental to some premium cruise lines where Carnival holds the same narrow minded dogmatic view that in order to make money all cruises must be short booze cruises.
And while there are short Cunard cruises, they are very, very far from booze cruises. A four-night cruise from New York on QM2 is not attracting the same crowd as one on Carnival.
quote:Originally posted by Sutho:As a result people are seeing HAL being turned into mass market and also Cunard.
Cunard's passenger mix and itineraries are not duplicated by anyone else. It is a niche product and doesn't fit into the standard market classification, but it is broadly "premium."
At any rate, Cunard was never a strictly "luxury" or "premium" line. Can anyone seriously think QUEEN VICTORIA is more "mass market" than CUNARD COUNTESS?!
quote:Originally posted by Sutho:There is definately a market for premium cruising or lines like Crystal, Regent and Silverseas would not exist. It appears that Carnival is too timid to even dare enter the premium market.
quote:Originally posted by jetwet1:Along with that is the constant announcements, seriously, the art auction stuff needs to stop or at least be toned down.
Cunard doesn't, neither does Celebrity (or at least it didn't until very recently). MSC also likes to boast about its "quiet ship" policy, though some of that may have to do with the necessity of using 5+ languages in announcements.
Of course they all do the art auctions, unfortunately. I have also seen rug auctions and wine auctions, on HAL and Celebrity respectively!
Then starting with the merger with Sitmar things perhaps crept slowly down-market. SUN PRINCESS was certainly not a "premium" ship and if there were any doubts, GRAND PRINCESS must have confirmed them entirely. All these ships built from SUN PRINCESS on were as mass-market as anything Royal Caribbean came up with.
At that point the food and service were (IMHO) still a good deal better on Princess than on RCI. I can't say how they compare now as I haven't been on either in years. But when GRAND PRINCESS was new you were still invited to order off the menu in the dining room. "Premium" HAL or Celebrity or even Cunard (Britannia) will certainly not do that today, nor do I imagine Princess will. (They might do it if you ask, but they won't ask you to do it.)
I think a lot of people consider the previous ROYAL PRINCESS to have been the last "real" Princess ship, having been the flagship for 21 years. She left the fleet in 2005 and did have a loyal following up until the end ... that goes for crew as well as passengers. Of course by 2005 Princess, I doubt anyone would seriously claim Princess to be "premium" ... except Princess, which I believe still does!
quote:Originally posted by Linerrich:Probably the closest contenders in the '70s would have been Holland America Cruises (so-named during those years) and Royal Cruise Line.
quote:Originally posted by desirod7:Was Greek Line considered the Carnival of the day?
Greek ships in general were pretty much the bottom rung, on cruises. Sun Line changed that but I think Greek cabotage laws may have had a hand in that, protecting it from foreign competition.
Royal Cruise Line (descended from Sun Line) was perhaps the first "international" (i.e., not focused on Aegean cruises) Greek operator that was rather upscale.
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