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There is also probably a newer and younger generation of cruisers who have the means for the luxury experience, but are also conditioned to want and expect more amenities and facilities on their ships; hence more incentive for the lines to offer them larger vessels.
Hopefully the luxury end of the cruise market will not become as homogenized and bland in the future as has happened (in general) with mass market cruising--otherwise, there would be no incentive to pay high fares for a more exclusive experience. The larger deluxe ships could backfire on their owners.
Rich
There is nevertheless a trend to larger vessels in the luxury segment - but these vessels are or were aditions to existing fleets of smaller ships and not replacing smaller units. (the present Europa is an example for a smaller ship replacing a larger one)
quote:Originally posted by Linerrich:[...]Hopefully the luxury end of the cruise market will not become as homogenized and bland in the future as has happened (in general) with mass market cruising--otherwise, there would be no incentive to pay high fares for a more exclusive experience. [...]
It happened already concerning the HARDWARE (NOT the way the ships are operated) Not only that 'recently' built luxury ships are not as different to less luxurious vessels as they could or should be (same fittings etc.) - look at the design of Europa, Silver Shadow and Silver Whisper. (...and the new Seabourn ship - I hope this will be nicer)
I think what is far more important than the size of the ships and how many passengers they carry is the design of the ship itself, the size of the cabins, the cabin amenities, the staff/passenger ratio, the space ratio, staff/crew training, and the quality of the food. These are truly the differentiators that will make the difference between mass-market and premium, not the size of the ship itself.
Of course the luxury market is something else entirely, and in that case I do feel the size of the ship matters. They are creeping up in size as well, but I don't think anything too dramatic so far.
Ernie
quote:Originally posted by eroller: They are creeping up in size as well, but I don't think anything too dramatic so far.
I was thinking of Seabourn's newbuilds at 32,000 tons. They will hardly be big by modern standards but more than three times the size of Pride, Legend and Spirit. Then there are the Oceania newbuilds, which will also be bigger than there existing fleet. And let’s not forget the Celebrity newbuilds.
[ 05-13-2007: Message edited by: Malcolm @ cruisepage ]
quote:Originally posted by Malcolm @ cruisepage: I was thinking of Seabourn's newbuilds at 32,000 tons. They will hardly be big by modern standards but more than three times the size of Pride, Legend and Spirit. Then there are the Oceania newbuilds, which will also be biger than there existing fleet. And lets not forget the Celebrity newbuilds.
I expect Seabourn and Silversea can still provide a luxury experience even with a ship in the 30,000 gt range. The personal space on these ships will be enormous and the crew/staff ratio will be very high. I also imagine these new ships will offer more restaurant choices so all passengers are not eating in the same dining room at the same time. This will enable meals that continue to be cooked to order, special requests granted with ease, and a high level of personal service that is not rushed.
I feel the same applies to a lessor degree concerning the new Celebrity and Oceania ships. I don't feel the premium market has the same size limitations the luxury market does. As I stated before the premium and mass-markets are not all that different. Again, it all comes down to space, design, training, and quality.
One can offer a luxury expierience aboard a 30 000 gt ship (there are and were examples for that) - it will be different than on a 5000 gt ship - but these 'recent' or soon to come ships are not replacing such ships.
In passenger compliment the above lines currently breakdown as follows up to 110 Hebridean Island and SeaDream, 110-210 Seabourn, 300-400 Silversea and 450 upwards Regency.
Whether size matters depends on one’s priority as to expectations and preferences it depends very much on what matters to the individual. What is pretty certain is that no new ships having less than 400 passengers are ever likely to be built for this market segment again. The economics of operation will dictate this hence both the Seabourn and Silversea new builds will be in the latter category.
Having sailed on all of the above other than Regency and excluding the Silver Whisper class I have a distinct preference for the current Seabourn ships and in the right cruising area SeaDream. I find it hard to believe that the Seabourn’s new ship will be able to match the same level of personal service where you are known by name and individual wishes are taken care off. Sure you can complain about the entertainment or lack of it but that’s not why I choose small ships it’s the service levels, absence of crowds and line ups and quality of food. The other big advantage is the proximity you have when cruising on smaller ships to the sea itself. In design terms they have all the features I like to find in a ship – walk around decks, ability to look out over the bow from more than one deck and in Seabourn’s case also from an observation lounge, outdoor dining and interaction with the officers. Long may it continue.
Yes of course we can!
- and we must not forget that there are other luxury lines or ship operators than Seabourn and Silversea.
That's right. Regent Seven Seas' last two vessels carry 700 people apiece (43% more than the line's next-oldest ship). And Crystal Cruises' Serenity, holds 1,080 people (15% more than the older Crystal Symphony). Even Silversea increased passenger capacity with its last two ships, which hold nearly 30% more people than its first two vessels.
There is a definite trend of luxury ship getting bigger, even if the growth is not as rapid as in the mass market sector.
quote:Originally posted by Ernst:...yes, some larger vessels have been built and ordered recently - but is this really a trend giving the small size of the ensemble?
Yes! No upscale line is building ships of the same size as in the past or smaller, they are all bigger.
quote:Originally posted by Malcolm @ cruisepage:Yes! No upscale line is building ships of the same size as in the past or smaller, they are all bigger.
But who is building beside Silversea (slightly bigger) and Seabourn (much bigger)? And also these vessels in the same range as luxury vessels we saw in the past - ranging from Caronia to SAL, NAL, Royal Viking etc. - only Crystal built slightly larger ships - difficult to say whether this is a trend. And if we talk about number of vessels built for this market: There were quite some smaller ones too - and e.g. the present Europa is smaller than her predecessor.
My feeling is that this market is just growing - they are just adding more vessels in the 30 000 gt range - and do not forget that some 30 000 gt vessels left the luxury market during the 'past' years.
A premium service would use the same ship but carry 2500 pax max and a mass market ship would carry plus 3000.
Even luxury lines do and will continue to look at the economies of scale of their operation, of course the market may not be big enough to fill a ship that size yet, but if trends continue that way then at some point it will and one of the lines will no doubt build a ship to service the market. Expect heli pads for excursions, private tenders, oversized marinas, etc.
What we will see is competition in the luxury segment from mainstream and premium ships by adding some more luxurious cabins 'atop' a 'normal' ship.
quote:Originally posted by Ernst:What we will see is competition in the luxury segment from mainstream and premium ships by adding some more luxurious cabins 'atop' a 'normal' ship.
Not that QM2 is a 'normal' cruise ship but she of course features a lower passenger capacity that other ships her size and two decks of suites and mini- suites w/their designated restaurants.
This is of course a very different expierience than a small luxury vessel - BUT I guess the price can be very competitive - some people might actually prefere the large ship - AND Silversea is not sailing from Florida every Saturday.
quote:Originally posted by Ernst:QM2 - and Cunard in general is an excellent example for that. I am not really fond of that - but I guess we will see some sort of first class on other large ships - offering some amenities or a different restaurant for certain cabin categories.day.
day.
I don't understand why this layout would be unpopular w/some as it is becoming more common in some upper-end hotels. As an example, the Four Seasons hotel in Las Vegas is situated on the upper floors of the Mandalay Bay resort. The difference w/the Four Seasons is that it is completely seperated from the lower floors.
On a premium ship all passengers can enjoy the expanded facilities that only a large ship such as QM2 can offer plus the cruise line can charge much higher fares for those exclusive accommodations.
quote:Originally posted by lasuvidaboy:I don't understand why this layout would be unpopular w/some as it is becoming more common in some upper-end hotels. [...]
I don't understand why this layout would be unpopular w/some as it is becoming more common in some upper-end hotels. [...]
It can be done - one just has to be careful. BTW not only QM2 but many ferries have a first class.
Other than in a hotel it might be 'noticed' if crucial or prominent parts of the ship can only be access by the 'frist class'.
quote:Originally posted by lasuvidaboy:I don't understand why this layout would be unpopular w/some as it is becoming more common in some upper-end hotels. As an example, the Four Seasons hotel in Las Vegas is situated on the upper floors of the Mandalay Bay resort. The difference w/the Four Seasons is that it is completely seperated from the lower floors.On a premium ship all passengers can enjoy the expanded facilities that only a large ship such as QM2 can offer plus the cruise line can charge much higher fares for those exclusive accommodations.
quote:Originally posted by desirod7:...when people are seperated by class, the ones who are not premium are felt to feel like 2nd class citizens on their hard earned vacation.
Not necessarily. When I have cruised with Cunard (QE2 and QM2) I have never been in Caronia or Grill class accommodation/dining. However I have always felt privileged to be on such a ship in any cabin, rather than feel ‘second-class’ (even though it’s ‘fourth class’ in reality).
(Desirod I have been trying to Private Message you on and off for weeks but your mailbox claims to be full. I've refereed the matter to Joe)
quote:Originally posted by Malcolm @ cruisepage:(Desirod I have been trying to Private Message you on and off for weeks but your mailbox claims to be full. I've refereed the matter to Joe)
I have cleaned out the mailbox
Malcolm, Cunrad the seperation is rather invisible. It is the upcoming QV where they have locked off the penthouse areaa and the theatre boxes.
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