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Carnival eyes 'Pinnacle Project'
September 17, 2004

CARNIVAL Corp will soon place newbuilding orders for delivery in 2007-2008, affirmed CEO Micky Arison. Orders could include new projects for the company's European brands and possibly a massive new vessel for Carnival Cruise Lines that would wrest the 'world's largest ship' title back from Royal Caribbean's (RCL) Ultra Voyager. “We are continuing work on a very large prototype called ‘Pinnacle Project’,” explained Arison. This latest entry into the 'size race' between Carnival and RCL would be delivered no earlier than the end of 2008 or early 2009. While not giving specifics on the 'Pinnacle Project', Arison has previously discussed a so-called 'Ultimate' concept that Carnival inherited through the Princess merger, involving a vessel of 170,000-180,000gt. Regarding other potential Carnival newbuilds, Arison explained, “We are working very hard right now with the yards to mitigate the currency issues, but clearly, to get ships for 2007-2008 time's running out. So I do expect some news relatively soon.”

Fairplay

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Looks like the Carnival Corp brands will be going on a splurge. How big will these European brand ships be? And that monster for Carnival? Which surely will be the largest of them all?

I would like to know what is happening with the negotiations between MSC and Fincantieri for those two possible newbuilds and whether they can get them in before Carnival starts ordering left, right and centre.

Which yards will build these monsters? Fincantieri’s Monfalcone yard is probably the number one choice, and then? Alstom (Chantiers d’Atlantique), Aker Finnyards (Kvaerner Masa Yards) at Turku and Mitsubishi... doubts about Meyer Werft. Anyway...

Cheers

[ 09-19-2004: Message edited by: bulbousbow ]

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Originally posted by Fairsky:

I really think NCL and RCI are doing some fresh, out-of-the-box, thinking with their designs... I wonder if Project Pinnacle will really be something exciting- or just something bigger.

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I also think this will be a completely new design. Not a stretched or enlarged version of anything currently sailing.

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Originally posted by nycruiser:
But in order for Carnival to ensure thier future (and thier crown as the most popular and largest cruise line in the world) they must build bigger and continue with inovative amenities.

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I would hope the look beyond raw passenger numbers and look to quality of experience. If they made the cabins notably larger, added the large amount of space needed for the inevitable increase in passengers, and seek to avoid allowing it to be labeled the worlds largest party barge, they might make it work.

Being Carnival, they may be looking ahead to adding ships of this class to all of their other lines. In which case the "big box" approach becomes more likely. If they are wise they see the ship as a PR stunt, which if it works, they can replicate. If it fails, they can sell it as a college student vacation ship.

I really hope it is. Teach the industry a lesson.

[ 09-21-2004: Message edited by: CGT ]

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keitaro wrote:
What I am really confused is which lines will get the early "Pinnacles"?

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No confusion. Carnival will get the monster ‘Pinnacle Project’. The other brands another design, maybe a ‘mini-Pinnacle’ or whatever you want to call it.

Earlier this year Carnival and Fincantieri were looking at an 180,000gt design able to carry 8,000 people (5,000 passengers, 3,000 crew). Could this be the ‘Pinnacle Project’ or is Carnival Corp looking at something even bigger.

CGT, not sure if it will be a failure. It seems Americans love big things. I do agree though that there has to be a limit on size at some stage. Where are you going to fit these massive ships and which ports will be capable of handling the large numbers of people?

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Originally posted by bulbousbow:

Earlier this year Carnival and Fincantieri were looking at an 180,000gt design able to carry 8,000 people (5,000 passengers, 3,000 crew). Could this be the ‘Pinnacle Project’ or is Carnival Corp looking at something even bigger.

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Most certainly that is the Pinnacle Project. 180,000 gt is reported to be the size of Pinnacle Project. With 5000 passengers that would give the ship a space ratio of 36. Not too bad, but not as good as Ultra-Voyager.

I think Royal Caribbean will come up with something just as large or maybe even closer to 200,000 gt that will be their next generation ship after Ultra-Voyager.

Hopefully 200,000 gt will be the max for cruise ships for the foreseeable future. I think once you get beyond 200,000 gt the economic benefit is greatly diminished.

bulbousbow is right on the money. Americans do love things big. This country has a "bigger = better" mentality and this is certainly demonstrated with the trend for larger and larger cruise ships, not to mention large suites on those cruise ships. Of course the cruise lines are only too happy to oblige since they can make more money and spend less per passenger with each larger ship they produce. People get a kick out of saying they sailed on the largest ship in the world. That is something that has not changed in a century. Even as far back as the early 1900's, people wanted to sail on the largest. One only need look at TITANIC as an example, among many.

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Originally posted by eroller:

I think once you get beyond 200,000 gt the economic benefit is greatly diminished.

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That is the only reason you can think of to say that hopefully "ships" (and I use the word "ships" loosely) won't go any larger?

[ 09-22-2004: Message edited by: CGT ]

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Originally posted by CGT:

That is the only reason you can think of to say that hopefully "ships" (and I use the word "ships" loosely) won't go any larger?

[ 09-22-2004: Message edited by: CGT ]

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It's the only reason that matters, at least to the cruise lines that is. If you think they are going to build smaller ships because you and a handful of other ship buffs don't like large ships, then your living in a pipe dream. I'm being realistic, and cruise lines are out to make money. If they can do it more efficiently with mega-ships, then that is what they are going to do. If ships reach a point where it no longer makes economic sense to build them any larger, then I feel that likely the *only* reason we will not see passenger ships lstretching beyond 200,000 gt. Having read several articles on this subject, cruise line analysts and executives have suggested that they don't see much economic benefit in a ship over 200,000 gt.

I guess you should be thankful it's not 300,000 gt they were talking about!

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Originally posted by eroller:

I guess you should be thankful it's not 300,000 gt they were talking about!

Ernie

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Originally posted by CGT:

You know I am, but it is a pyrrhic victory.

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I would prefer it if passengers ships didn't get any larger either ... believe me. I'm trying to think like a cruise line accountant and I know if they feel they can squeeze another buck profit out of a 200,000 gt ship, they will build it! It's all a big numbers game. Our only hope of stabilizing passenger ships to a size of 200,000 gt or under is if the analysts realize there is no gain to building a ship any larger. Hopefully that is what will happen .... so long as Arison and Fain don't get into another pissing contest.

I was actually hoping that QM2 would retain the role of "largest" for many years, like QE2 did. Unfortunately this will not be the case and no doubt in 10 years or so she will be number 10+ on the list of largest.

[ 09-22-2004: Message edited by: CGT ]

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Originally posted by eroller:

Our only hope of stabilizing passenger ships to a size of 200,000 gt or under is if the analysts realize there is no gain to building a ship any larger. Hopefully that is what will happen .... so long as Arison and Fain don't get into another pissing contest.

I was actually hoping that QM2 would retain the role of "largest" for many years, like QE2 did. Ernie

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Originally posted by eroller:

I was actually hoping that QM2 would retain the role of "largest" for many years, like QE2 did. Unfortunately this will not be the case and no doubt in 10 years or so she will be number 10+ on the list of largest.

Ernie

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