Welcome to Cruise Talk the Internet's most popular discussion forum dedicated to cruising. Stop by Cruise Talk anytime to post a message or find out what your fellow passengers and industry insiders are saying about a particular ship, cruise line or destination.
>>> Reader Reviews >>> CruisePage.com Photo Gallery >>> Join Our Cruise Club.
Latest News...A hero's welcome awaited the new Disney Cruise Line ship, the Disney Destiny, Monday evening during a sensational christening celebration at its homeport of Port Everglades in Fort Lauderdale, Florida.The Disney Destiny Christening combined the spirit of a high-energy concert with the theatricality of a Disney spectacular, including a multi-tiered set, drone special effects and scenic projections...
Latest News...In a radiant evening celebration illuminated by celestial hues and filled with unforgettable moments, Star Princess – the newest and most innovative ship from Princess Cruises – was officially named by godparents, Camila and Matthew McConaughey.While Star Princess was alongside at Port Everglades last night, the vibrant couple christened the ship during...
Latest News...MSC Seascape arrived at its new homeport in Galveston this morning ahead of MSC Cruises' first-ever sailings from the Texas port. Starting Sunday, the ship will deliver Texas-sized fun on 7-night Galveston cruises to the Western Caribbean, with stops in Costa Maya and Cozumel, Mexico; and Isla de Roatan, Honduras. Departing every Sunday, the ship will continue these sailings year-round...
quote:Cruise line customers left high and dryOverbooking by Carnival forces cancellations; 'Ruined these people's vacation' By Paul AdamsSun StaffAugust 4, 2004After months of rehabilitation from injuries suffered in a racing accident at Pimlico Race Course in May, veteran jockey Rick Wilson and his family were looking forward to a seven-day cruise on Carnival Cruise Lines' recently minted ship, Miracle.It was to be the family's big vacation after an awful spring and summer spent in hospitals.But yesterday, the family members found out they are among a large number of would-be vacationers who have seen their plans disrupted in recent weeks because of overbooking on Carnival cruises from Baltimore.Travel agents said they fear the cancellations are souring passengers and endangering Baltimore's booming cruise business.Though they couldn't disclose exact figures, Carnival officials said yesterday that hundreds of passengers who had hoped to sail on one of the line's eight cruises from Baltimore this summer have been "bumped" because of overbooking."After what we've been through this year, we were really, really looking forward to it," said Jean Wilson, Rick's wife. The family was part of a group of 57 people -- about half of them horse racing enthusiasts -- bumped from the cruise."This was going to be our good vacation at a time when it's well needed," Wilson said.Several Baltimore-area travel agents said their customers have been among those disappointed by Carnival as the city's years-long efforts to attract more cruise ships is finally bearing fruit.Port of Baltimore officials said they anticipate handling 240,000 cruise passengers this year, more than double the 115,813 last year and far more than the 5,103 it saw in 1999, before cruise lines started to give Baltimore a second look. Several lines began sailing directly from Baltimore after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks to attract passengers who were reluctant to fly.Committed customers The problem, a Carnival spokeswoman said, is that the cruise line hasn't been getting nearly as many cancellations in Baltimore as it does at its other ports.Cruise patrons in the mid-Atlantic, it turns out, are more committed than the average passenger. As a result, the complex computer algorithms that Carnival employs to figure out how many passengers are likely to back out failed to anticipate the region's pent-up passion for cruising. Similar systems are used by airlines to predict passenger behavior."We have a formula, if you will, that is pretty reliable in terms of estimating the amount of attrition that we're going to have," said Jennifer de la Cruz, a spokeswoman for Carnival. "But we didn't have nearly the attrition [in Baltimore] that we normally see."The problem is remarkable given that Carnival, which transports nearly 2 million passengers a year, is a new entrant in the Baltimore market. Often, cruise lines find it takes a few years before vacationers warm up to a new service, which leads to light bookings in the beginning. Not so in Baltimore."They didn't realize the strength of the Baltimore market, I guess," said Patty Sroka, a travel agent who booked the Wilsons and dozens of others on the Sept. 26 cruise out of Baltimore. She said several groups, including hers, were bumped from the sailing."Since 9/11, people don't want to fly, and if there's something local and they can avoid flying, they would prefer to do that," she said.Sroka, who operates a small travel agency out of her Woodbine home, booked the cruises almost a year ago on behalf of her uncle, John Divver, who organizes a large trip every few years for a growing number of family members and friends. Divver, owner of B&B Auto Sales in Gaithersburg, raises horses on the side and is well connected in the racing world. Many group members, who have vacationed together for years, are horse trainers, jockeys and owners."It's ludicrous," Divver said. "It basically ruined these people's vacation."The situation poses particular problems for the horse trainers, who must arrange months in advance for others to care for their animals while they are away on vacation."For trainers to be gone a week is big time," Divver said.Carnival offered to send the group on an alternative cruise out of New York with more luxurious accommodations and some spending money thrown in.But the new dates are unworkable, and the group was set on cruising out of Baltimore. The cruise line will refund the group's money and offer incentives on future cruises, but it's little consolation for the disappointed members."I think Carnival is out of our vocabulary now," said Shirleyan Benham, a retired Salisbury nursing instructor who, along with her husband, planned to join the group. "People have lost a lot of money and time."Agents frustrated Royal Caribbean, Celebrity, Norwegian Cruise Lines and Holland America also sail out of Baltimore.A spokeswoman for Royal Caribbean, which began extensive service in Baltimore this year, said the cruise line has not had to involuntarily bump passengers from its voyages.But travel agents, who report strong interest in Baltimore cruises, are frustrated and worried that the problem could spread."We're drawing folks from as far away as Indiana," said Barbara Cooper, a travel agent with Bennett World Travel in Ellicott City, which books cruises. "It's disconcerting because you don't want to not sell the local cruises, but then again you're afraid to book anything because you're afraid they're going to get bumped."That's what happened to Cooper's colleague, Florine Smith, who had booked a group of 27 for a Carnival cruise that departed on Mother's Day. Most had paid in full and booked almost a year in advance, but Carnival told them they would have to reschedule for a different date. Only nine members did so. The rest got a refund."Many of them became disillusioned," Smith said.De la Cruz stressed that it is rare for passengers to get bumped. But when it happens, the cruise line tries to inform passengers quickly in hope of finding them alternative accommodations."It doesn't necessarily make people feel better ... but if we are in an oversold situation, it's going to be noted a few months prior [to departure]," she said.Copyright © 2004, The Baltimore Sun
Overbooking by Carnival forces cancellations; 'Ruined these people's vacation' By Paul AdamsSun Staff
August 4, 2004
After months of rehabilitation from injuries suffered in a racing accident at Pimlico Race Course in May, veteran jockey Rick Wilson and his family were looking forward to a seven-day cruise on Carnival Cruise Lines' recently minted ship, Miracle.
It was to be the family's big vacation after an awful spring and summer spent in hospitals.
But yesterday, the family members found out they are among a large number of would-be vacationers who have seen their plans disrupted in recent weeks because of overbooking on Carnival cruises from Baltimore.
Travel agents said they fear the cancellations are souring passengers and endangering Baltimore's booming cruise business.
Though they couldn't disclose exact figures, Carnival officials said yesterday that hundreds of passengers who had hoped to sail on one of the line's eight cruises from Baltimore this summer have been "bumped" because of overbooking.
"After what we've been through this year, we were really, really looking forward to it," said Jean Wilson, Rick's wife. The family was part of a group of 57 people -- about half of them horse racing enthusiasts -- bumped from the cruise.
"This was going to be our good vacation at a time when it's well needed," Wilson said.
Several Baltimore-area travel agents said their customers have been among those disappointed by Carnival as the city's years-long efforts to attract more cruise ships is finally bearing fruit.
Port of Baltimore officials said they anticipate handling 240,000 cruise passengers this year, more than double the 115,813 last year and far more than the 5,103 it saw in 1999, before cruise lines started to give Baltimore a second look. Several lines began sailing directly from Baltimore after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks to attract passengers who were reluctant to fly.
Committed customers
The problem, a Carnival spokeswoman said, is that the cruise line hasn't been getting nearly as many cancellations in Baltimore as it does at its other ports.
Cruise patrons in the mid-Atlantic, it turns out, are more committed than the average passenger. As a result, the complex computer algorithms that Carnival employs to figure out how many passengers are likely to back out failed to anticipate the region's pent-up passion for cruising. Similar systems are used by airlines to predict passenger behavior.
"We have a formula, if you will, that is pretty reliable in terms of estimating the amount of attrition that we're going to have," said Jennifer de la Cruz, a spokeswoman for Carnival. "But we didn't have nearly the attrition [in Baltimore] that we normally see."
The problem is remarkable given that Carnival, which transports nearly 2 million passengers a year, is a new entrant in the Baltimore market. Often, cruise lines find it takes a few years before vacationers warm up to a new service, which leads to light bookings in the beginning. Not so in Baltimore.
"They didn't realize the strength of the Baltimore market, I guess," said Patty Sroka, a travel agent who booked the Wilsons and dozens of others on the Sept. 26 cruise out of Baltimore. She said several groups, including hers, were bumped from the sailing.
"Since 9/11, people don't want to fly, and if there's something local and they can avoid flying, they would prefer to do that," she said.
Sroka, who operates a small travel agency out of her Woodbine home, booked the cruises almost a year ago on behalf of her uncle, John Divver, who organizes a large trip every few years for a growing number of family members and friends. Divver, owner of B&B Auto Sales in Gaithersburg, raises horses on the side and is well connected in the racing world. Many group members, who have vacationed together for years, are horse trainers, jockeys and owners.
"It's ludicrous," Divver said. "It basically ruined these people's vacation."
The situation poses particular problems for the horse trainers, who must arrange months in advance for others to care for their animals while they are away on vacation.
"For trainers to be gone a week is big time," Divver said.
Carnival offered to send the group on an alternative cruise out of New York with more luxurious accommodations and some spending money thrown in.
But the new dates are unworkable, and the group was set on cruising out of Baltimore. The cruise line will refund the group's money and offer incentives on future cruises, but it's little consolation for the disappointed members.
"I think Carnival is out of our vocabulary now," said Shirleyan Benham, a retired Salisbury nursing instructor who, along with her husband, planned to join the group. "People have lost a lot of money and time."
Agents frustrated
Royal Caribbean, Celebrity, Norwegian Cruise Lines and Holland America also sail out of Baltimore.
A spokeswoman for Royal Caribbean, which began extensive service in Baltimore this year, said the cruise line has not had to involuntarily bump passengers from its voyages.
But travel agents, who report strong interest in Baltimore cruises, are frustrated and worried that the problem could spread.
"We're drawing folks from as far away as Indiana," said Barbara Cooper, a travel agent with Bennett World Travel in Ellicott City, which books cruises. "It's disconcerting because you don't want to not sell the local cruises, but then again you're afraid to book anything because you're afraid they're going to get bumped."
That's what happened to Cooper's colleague, Florine Smith, who had booked a group of 27 for a Carnival cruise that departed on Mother's Day. Most had paid in full and booked almost a year in advance, but Carnival told them they would have to reschedule for a different date. Only nine members did so. The rest got a refund.
"Many of them became disillusioned," Smith said.
De la Cruz stressed that it is rare for passengers to get bumped. But when it happens, the cruise line tries to inform passengers quickly in hope of finding them alternative accommodations.
"It doesn't necessarily make people feel better ... but if we are in an oversold situation, it's going to be noted a few months prior [to departure]," she said.
Copyright © 2004, The Baltimore Sun
Princess Cruises is actually the most notorious for overselling. I actually think it's part of their yield management strategy. Oversell some very popular sailings beyond the attrition factor, and then petition volunteer passengers to move to a less desirable sailing with a token on-board credit (which gets spent onboard anyway). Now you have two sailings going out full. It's my understanding Princess has a team in place where their sole responsibility is calling travel agents for buy-off offers.
I worked in Inventory for Princess Cruises years ago. Once in a great while we would have a major oversell situation which would require voluntary and even involuntary buy-offs. I was one of the people that would call travel agents with the offer. The offer sweetened as the sailing closed in. As I stated, this was quite rare and really got everyone worked up. Now I understand it's an everyday occurrence at Princess Cruises.
Ernie
It is a lot easier and far more likely for a lone cabin's occupants to transfer to another date, but hardly unlikely, impossible even, for a group of 50+ people to be able all regroup on another date. Seems they want to take the easy route and clear 25 cabins all at one go, rather than make 25 separate pleas.
Pam
quote:Originally posted by PamM:I see why they oversell & may end up with having to buy off pax.. but what I don't see is why they seem from the report above to have 'bumped' the groups.
When time is of the essence and not enough individual passengers have volunteered to move sailings, then the easiest alternative is to move an entire group involuntarily. It takes one phone call and the cruise line gets a huge chuck of cabins back in availability in a very short time.
Calling passengers for buy-offs is VERY time consuming. First the cruise line has to call the travel agent with the offer. Then the travel agent has to call the passenger. Then they discuss it. Eventually the travel agent calls back the cruise line and relays the passengers concerns, and maybe if they said yes or no. Then the process starts all over again. This process can take days and days, and even longer. Eventually it gets to a point where the cruise line must take more immediate action to release the space, or they get too close to the sailing and it becomes impossible to contact the passengers.
No doubt Carnival has tried the "individual route" and no one is budging. Now they are taking the quickest and easiest steps to free up the space. No matter how they do it, people are going to be pissed off.
quote:Originally posted by Namlit:would booking a specific cabin, as opposed to booking a "cabin guarantee", offer any protection from being involuntarily bumped?
That technically shouldn't make any difference. If they get down to involuntarily removing individual bookings, it should go by booking date, regardless of whether a cabin has been assigned or not. Of course when they get desperate who knows? I have a feeling unwritten rules get thrown out the door. Unlike airlines which have specific rules and obligations when involuntarily bumping passengers, cruise lines pretty much do whatever they want.
I really don’t understand how cruise lines, in good faith, can overbook –concellations are refundable on a well spelled out schedule and there’s always the chance that the space can be re-sold – I question that much money is lost by any Line.
In the situation under discussion, the balance payments would, I believe, have been made sometime the week of July 19. Carnival, in my estimation is definitely on the hook for full reimbursement + + + to all bumped pax. And what about the booking agents – are they also to be penal ized and denied payment for their work. Were I still in the business, I’d for sure be boycotting Carnival ships!
quote:Originally posted by merobro: I have just received the dreaded call from Carnival. My group of 58 passengers who were to cruise on the 'Miracle' out of Baltimore in October have just been bumped. I know this has happened to hundreds of people this year and it is beyond belief. These passengers booked on 28 May 2003.
This is pretty bad. May I ask what other compensation Carnival is offering besides just moving your pax to another date.
I feel bad for you as the travel agent and also for your passengers. It's a no-win for anyone, including Carnival.
Brian
People are gumbling about NCL having ditched a 'Monster in the morning' group due to sail sometime next year and are filing a 1m lawsuit or something, which afaics they [NCL] are prefectly within their rights to do so, yet Carnival are playing far dirtier in my book.
People will lose confidence on booking sailings out of Baltimore.
These aren't exactly the best ways to treat customers who have contracted so far in advance.
These are manners of big arrogant corporations against the defenseless consumer, and such things are long remembered.
If the fundamental contract between two parties is abused in such a blatant way by the most powerfull, it hurts many people deep. Both parties are deemed to be equal and freely contracting.
Still, I hope an acceptable solution can be found.
I wonder if this might provide an incentive to the (some?) US cruise lines to start trying to manage their overbooking problems with non-refundable deposits. That would inevitably lead to fewer cancellations. At present, you can book now in the US for a cruise in late April 2006 (yes, I know someone online who is booking a group for then), put down a deposit, and then cancel in January 2006 without any penalty whatsoever.
It will not be on a Carnival ship.!!!!
Carnival is now the size that increased earnings has to come from lower overall growth on account of size and more from squeezing the existing financial model. Expect more of this and other nickel and dimes in futute until there is nothing less and the group just grows with inflation.
NMNita
quote:Originally posted by newmexicoNita:To BrianO and others: I have heard and dealt with overbookings both on cruises and hotels, but never anything to this magnitude. But, when I hear the those words "class action suite" my blood boils. Why do some people always think of sue, sue, sue? NMNita
Because these hucksters are not operating in "good faith" or anything that even remotely resembles it. This case is so disgraceful, Carnival deserves to be forced to pay a huge penalty. Don't try to equate my suggestion of a class action suit with "ambulance chasing". They DESERVE to be sued.
quote:Originally posted by Brian_O:Because these hucksters are not operating in "good faith" or anything that even remotely resembles it. This case is so disgraceful, Carnival deserves to be forced to pay a huge penalty. Don't try to equate my suggestion of a class action suit with "ambulance chasing". They DESERVE to be sued.Brian
HERE HERE!!!!
Carnival is not operating in "good faith" or anything that even remotely resembles it.
merobro - regardless of who was bumped.......Carnival is not playing fair. I'm not big on law suits but in this instance I'd be in favour of 'throwing the book' at it. As you say, "These people are not considering sueing over a cup of hot coffee spilling onto their lap."
I'd be very [
[ 08-30-2004: Message edited by: Green ]
Ultimate Bulletin BoardTM 6.1.0.3
More Vacation & Cruise Specials...