--Tim

------------------

New York City prides itself on being known as “A Helluva Town” but, in my opinion, and in the opinion of most industry members and cruise passengers alike, it’s a hellish place from which to take a cruise.

New York City as a cruise port needs a major upgrade and next week, in the conclusion of this two-part editorial series, we will discuss some of the things which could and should be done, and by whom, to help turn New York City into a “Helluva” Great Cruise port. I believe travel agents have a very critical and pivotal position to play, and that it’s time for the agent community to step forward in an ombudsman role.

To date, from what I’ve seen and heard, the City hasn’t done a damned thing to clean up its cruise act.

And, I’ve learned from first hand experience just how miserable that can be for a New York City cruise passenger. Just a few weeks ago I drove over to the port from our nearby offices to board a new cruise liner which had just arrived in port. When I got there I waited at the pier, at the end of a long line of cars. I had expected that, at the end of that long line, I would park my car, as usual, on the upper deck of the pier.

After a lengthy wait, a grumpy guard told me to my dismay that the pier parking area was filled, although I had noticed, before driving onto the pier, that lots of parking space appeared to be available. Nevertheless, after a brief argument, which he won, I was turned away gruffly and given a parking ticket to a parking area a good half mile from the pier.

Grumbling all the way, I parked at the broken down, dilapidated lot at 59th Street, between 11th and 12th Avenues. I wondered what condition my car might be in when I returned for it, and then waited at least 20 minutes for a parking lot bus to take me and other passengers to the pier.

After spending only an hour or so aboard ship, I decided to return home for the evening and disembarked, together with my carry-on luggage. Upon taking the elevator down from the pier to street level, I waited at least half an hour for a parking lot bus, which never arrived. Next, I decided to walk over to the West Side Highway and attempt to hail a taxi. When that didn’t work, I took my life into my own hands and managed to cross the West Side Highway while cars whizzed past me.

That was the easy part and just the beginning of my trip. Once I reached the far side, with the temperature in the low 90’s and neither an empty taxi nor a policeman ever in sight, I started the long hot walk up 12th Avenue to the parking lot.

I’ve lived in New York City far longer than I’d like to admit, but I had never realized until then just how many drunks, derelicts and bums hang out on 12th Avenue, across from the piers. I’ll never know how I escaped being mugged, robbed, hit over the head or worse. But, somehow or other, 20 minutes later, I returned to the broken down parking lot and induced a crabby non-English, non-Spanish speaking attendant to pull out my car for me.

------------------------------------------------------------

I read your editorial “New York, New York Is One Helluva Port” with mixed emotions because I, too, can’t understand the attitude The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey and the Economic Development Corporation of New York have with this great missed opportunity. I say missed because the longer they procrastinate, the sooner they will lose to other areas that would love to get into the cruise market.

New Jersey is another area waiting for the second shoe to drop. Buses from the New England area are already taking passengers over the George Washington Bridge and approaching the piers on the West Side of Manhattan from the Lincoln Tunnel. Why not drop them in Jersey and build the new cruise ship terminals there?

Right now highway travel to the New York piers is a real disaster waiting to happen because it gets tougher as more ships are planning to use the facilities there.

What is the answer? Either make some sort of move to retain that business or let it go elsewhere.

Right after 9/11 the then Mayor Guiliani begged people to come back to the “City” for all its attractions. They practically were giving theatre seats away. Here lies an opportunity for the pre and post cruisers to really bring some green into New York. So New York and, yes, New Jersey better do some real deep thinking.

As far as getting to the piers, I think there is a real practical solution, but I think I’ll just sit by and wait to see when it becomes obvious to someone in New York’s “Think Tanks.”

------------------------------------------------------------

On Sept. 19 at 9 p.m., we set out from Coldwater, OH to begin our journey to “The Big Apple.” The driver was a bit hesitant about this trip because he had never been in Manhattan. I told him it would be a piece of cake, that we’d drive through the Lincoln Tunnel, turn left and head to the Hudson River piers — not really seeing much of Manhattan at all. At 10:15 Saturday morning as we were going through the tunnel I told the group, “Another 10 minutes and you’ll have it made in the shade.”

As we approached the cruise ship terminal, we saw a long, long line of buses. We got in line and when we finally got close to where the ship was docked, we were told that there was no more room for buses and we should “go drive around and come back at 12:30 p.m.” We did what we were told, went back at 12:30 p.m., and were then told to “go drive around some more” and come back at 1:45 p.m. Needless to say, after driving all night long, we were exhausted. After hours of driving around, we were finally allowed to park the bus and let the passengers off. No need to tell you about the mess we faced in the terminal — you already know that!

The bus driver and I went to park the bus at the Central Parking. We were told “no room here nor anywhere else in Manhattan to park that bus.” My emotions finally got the best of me and the tears started. The bus driver asked the lot supervisor if he could check for a parking spot.

He found one in the far corner of the lot. The price went from $75 to $80 to $100 per day. They really had us over a barrel. So I guess I should feel fortunate that I got by with a $700 parking bill. As the Carnival Victory was pulling back into port, I was sitting by a window watching us dock.

Second writer, once again, makes the personal automobile too important. Why the hell are people driving into Manhattan when they can take trains into Grand Central or Penn Station and then take another cab to the piers? Get a clue people, and leave your personal cars at home. USE MASS TRANSIT.

Third writer. Has the most valid issues. The piers do need to be rebuilt and improved, that is for sure, especially for buses and taxi circulation. But moving the ships out of Manhattan away from these piers is dead wrong.

Back in the day people who traveled to these piers for a crossing traveled by train to NYC and took cabs to the piers from Grand Central and Penn. People today are far to dependent on using personal cars.

SoBeTim, had you been around in earlier times, it is obvious you are the type of person that would have been right behind the Pennsylvania Railroad shouting your support as they tore down the original Penn Station (a disgraceful act, a "monumental act of vandalism", now universally mourned) or been one of the biggest supporters of pulling up the famous and extensive Los Angeles Red Car rail system - in favor of freeways.

[ 12-20-2003: Message edited by: CGT ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by CGT:
Also, I'm down at the piers often to see ships in port. I take the subway and walk the rest of the way on foot.
[ 12-20-2003: Message edited by: CGT ]

---

So you walk over to view the ships, you're not taking the subway and walking with luggage to actually embark a cruise correct?

quote:

---

Originally posted by SoBe Tim:

So you walk over to view the ships, you're not taking the subway and walking with luggage to actually embark a cruise correct?

Tim

---

No, becuase if were embarking on a cruise and I had *luggage* I'd take a CAB!!!

[ 12-20-2003: Message edited by: CGT ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by CGT:
The first person who lives in NYC should have taken a cab to the pier instead of driving a personal car. Idiot.

---

quote:

---

USE MASS TRANSIT.

---

quote:

---

People today are far to dependent on using personal cars.

---

quote:

---

SoBeTim, had you been around in earlier times, it is obvious you are the type of person that would have been ... shouting your support as they tore down the original Penn Station

---

[ 12-20-2003: Message edited by: cruiseny ]

If they have the option of using a train, say the LIRR from somewhere out on Long Island to Penn Station, or NJ transit to Penn Station, or the Metro North to Grand Central, then they should use it and then take cabs from the train stations to the pier. Just because this country has become very overly dependent on automobiles and people "do it all the time" at airports doesn't make it right (it's very wrong, from many points of view, including enviromental, social, and urban planning persepectives).

With luggage? I'm all for mass transit but not for schlepping big suitcases around on it.

Yes, absolutely, with luggage. You can take NJ transit, Metro North and LIRR trains with luggage. No, they won't check it for you (unless you are coming into Penn Station on an Amtrak train that has checked baggage service), but too bad, you don't need all 14 of those bags anyway. When I've traveled down to Florida on the train, I've taken the subway *with my luggage* to Penn Station to get on the Amtrak train. Yes CruiseNY WITH LUGGAGE. People can stop being lazy, period.

I agree, but the plain fact is, the terminals will have to change to meet their customers' needs, not the other way around. Making it hard for people to drive their cars and park there isn't going to make them use the train, it's going to make them not take the cruise.

Yeah that would be the typical American attitude, wouldn't it? If I can't be selfish and drive in my own little isolated personal world of my personal little automobile, I just won't go. Wahhh! Sometimes, (especially Americans) people NEED the forced push. The terminal can be improved to handle LIMITED personal cars in a more efficent manner. Other than that, the terminal should be improved for better bus and taxi circulation (as well as passenger handling facilities i.e. the pier buildings themselves).

Now you must be joking... Penn Station being demolished was a tragedy. As for the NYPST, I don't see what would be tragic about that. There would be a great loss of tradition with passenger ships no longer calling on the West Side of Manhattan but the buildings themselves are totally expendable. There is no beautiful architecture in these buildings like Peen Station had, that's for sure. They are to the old West Side piers what that rabbit warren they now call Penn Station is to what used to be there. Aside from that they're passenger ship piers in the traditional location, they have very little of value. They're old, rundown, ugly, and totally inadequate and the buildings themselves have no redeeming feature that I can see which merits saving them from a historical preservation point of view.

No, I'm not joking and you miss my point entirely. There is nothing historical about the present pier buildings. The only thing from a historical perspective that would be saved is the tradition of passenger ships calling at passenger piers in that location on the west side of Manhattan and of course the experience of arriving or departing by sailing up or down the Hudson with Manhattan's magnificent skyline bidding you farewell or welcoming you home (and I do think those tradtitions are worth saving). However, my point is that the demolition of Penn Station was a mistake. The uprooting of the Los Angeles Red Car system was a big MISTAKE (and ironically, LA County has spent billions trying to put back the rails they ripped up decades earlier). These were mistakes made in the name of the "new" and the "better" and "progress" and were all born from misguided judgements and ideas. Taking the ships out of the centralized location of Midtown Manhattan (the most desirable place to have the piers for reasons that I have previously mentioned and for other reasons that even you have stated as well) and moving them to far flung corners of Brooklyn, Bayonne NJ and God knows where else, will be the same type of mistake.

[ 12-20-2003: Message edited by: CGT ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by CGT:
If they have the option of using a train, say the LIRR from somewhere out on Long Island to Penn Station

---

And before you ask, I HAVE been on the LIRR, many times, in fact I prefer it to a car, but not if I'm going to be bringing luggage! There's a reason they have baggage cars on long-distance trains...

quote:

---

Yeah that would be the typical American attitude, wouldn't it? If I can't be selfish and drive in my own little isolated personal world of my personal little automobile, I just won't go.

---

quote:

---

The only thing from a historical perspective that would be saved is the tradition of passenger ships calling at passenger piers in that location on the west side of Manhattan

---

YES cruiseny, you heard me the first time. Like I said, you don't need all 14 of those bags or all 10 pairs of those shoes. Get over it. If I can take luggage on the subway to Penn Station, people can take luggage on an LIRR train.

Yes, it would be, and making it hard for people to drive to a cruise terminal is hardly going to change it.

Sometimes, people need the push to change. And if they refuse? Well then the selfish car addicted Americans can stay home and cut their nose to spite their face (or they just didn't really want to go on the cruise that badly in the first place). There will be more room on the ship for other more sensible people.

Well that is perfectly true, but that's not to say that if the New Jersey and Brooklyn experiments are failures, they couldn't go back to using the West Side. I just don't think Penn Station is a good analogy for this, especially since it was replaced by something in the same exactly place, unpleasant as it may be.

It is a perfect analogy from the perspective that I explained. Luckily, if they do make this mistake, it is reversable (*unlike* Penn Station).

[ 12-20-2003: Message edited by: CGT ]

NYC is NYC, not the rest of the country, where using your car to get where you need to be is not only normal, but necessary. To most people, driving into NYC does sound crazy, even if we haven’t been to the town. However most people still expect the act to be physically possible, and even see it as something of an adventure. Most people are not interested in having to learn an entirely different way of life and travel to do something as simple as get onboard a cruise ship, or see a site of some kind. This is why NYC will be lucky to retain much cruise traffic now that Carnival and RCI are both building new facilities across the river.

quote:

---

Originally posted by NathanWLB:
With respect to the NYC natives or residents, I’m from Ohio, and were not my wife from New Jersey, and well versed in traveling into and out of the city, I would not have an idea of 90% of what CGT is talking about. I’ve lived in L.A., Washington State, North Carolina, driven (in my “personal car” which as described above seems to be some kind of dirty nasty capitalist sin) across most of the continental United States. Other than NYC I’ve never heard of anyplace where driving is as strong advised against as that town. I’ll accept the advice at face value, but wish the cosmopolitan New Yorkers would dial into what the rest of the county thinks for a change.

NYC is NYC, not the rest of the country, where using your car to get where you need to be is not only normal, but necessary. To most people, driving into NYC does sound crazy, even if we haven’t been to the town. However most people still expect the act to be physically possible, and even see it as something of an adventure. Most people are not interested in having to learn an entirely different way of life and travel to do something as simple as get onboard a cruise ship, or see a site of some kind. This is why NYC will be lucky to retain much cruise traffic now that Carnival and RCI are both building new facilities across the river.

Having aired that out, I agree with CGT, don’t drive. You can get away with parking at the port of Miami, but not NYC. We are getting dropped off early by family living in NJ. No cabs, busses, trains, or parking issues. Getting in and around that town from all I’ve been told by family requires advance research and forgoing certain things. At least, as long as the city does such a poor job of accommodating cruise travel.

---

The things I am talking about, the LIRR, NJ Transit, and Metro North, are things I am talking about for local Tri-State area residents, who would be familiar with those things. As for someone like you, living out of the Tri-State area, you don't have to worry about driving, becuase you can either fly in to one of the NYC metropolitan airports (JFK/LGA/EWR) and take a cab or cruise arranged bus to the piers or for people who don't want to fly (or don't like to fly) take Amtrak into Penn Station and take a shorter cab ride over to the piers (or do as you are doing now, if you have relatives or friends willing to drop you off).

I do definitely believe that the piers should be renovated (although I personally don't mind one bit the big open warehouse feeling of the passenger facility, because yes, it makes me feel like I'm living decades past), and I do believe that something must be done to improve the situation for buses and taxis. That something may be a combination of physical rebuilding improvements and juggling schedules or cruise lines excercising prudence in the size of the vessels they schedule into New York (it's really too bad that cruise lines find it so nessecary to have to build such apartment block box boat monsters today anyway).

In reply to NathanWLB about NYC and cars:

As for New York City and cars, it is the way it is because New York is a city that was NOT built around the automobile, and it is no coincidence that New York City has the biggest and best subway system in the WORLD (did you know New York City is the ONLY city in the world with four track express service? Yes, it's true). New York City's subway system is truly remarkable, and it is the backbone of the public transportation system in this city. And thank God for it. It is also no coincidence that NYC has such vibrant street life, with sidewalks jammed with pedestrians working in businesses, shopping in stores, eating in restaurants, going to the movies, attending the theatre, going to school and seeing the sites (because you can actually walk here!). New York City is the only city in America where you can live without a car *with ease*, and it is a Very Good Thing. The only other cities that come close in this country are San Francisco in the first place (not as easy as New York, but second best), then probably Boston, and probably Chicago (but both not as good as San Francisco and of course none as good as New York City). It is almost as inadvisable to drive into San Francisco as it is to drive into NYC and I can assure you that the parking situation at Pier 35 in San Franciso is even worse than NYC - there is none, period. However, SFO is not as busy a port as NYC. One pier, and one or two ships at a time, only. Every other city in America is an urban sprawl type city based on and built around the automobile, unlike most European cities, and even cities in Asia, like Tokyo, for instance. New York City has a life and soul to it because the automobile never succeeded in destroying NYC like it did other cities (though Robert Moses sure did try - see Rick Burns "New York: A Documentary Film" end of part 6 beginning with the 1939 Worlds fair and all of Part 7).

[ 12-20-2003: Message edited by: CGT ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by CGT:

(although I personally don't mind one bit the big open warehouse feeling of the passenger facility, because yes, it makes me feel like I'm living decades past), [ 12-20-2003: Message edited by: CGT ]

---

This speaks volumes.

quote:

---

Originally posted by SoBe Tim:

This speaks volumes.

Tim

---

It speaks volumes about what ? Why I don't think the ships should leave the west side piers? Yes it's part of three of several reasons - history, tradition and nostalgia. But there are many other practical reasons too which I and cruiseny have pointed out as well which themselves alone make it a bad idea to move the ships off to far corners of Brooklyn and *Bayonnne* (God the latter just gets me every time, a real joke).

[ 12-20-2003: Message edited by: CGT ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dolphins:
If it were not for RM ... I would still be living in the Rotten Apple

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cruiseny:

That may not be entirely true in that he was instrumental in getting the apple to rot in the first place...

---

LOL, yes he destroyed East Tremont in the Bronx, and if he had had his way, we would not have the Village, or Soho, and a good portion of midtown.

[ 12-20-2003: Message edited by: CGT ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dolphins:
I get the impression that CGT was not too fond of my hero Robert Moses? If it were not for RM I would never have realized my suburban dream house and I would still be living in the Rotten Apple and be as miserable as CGT has demonstrated he is on this board.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dolphins:
"Critics never built anything!"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dolphins:
"You can't make omelettes without breaking eggs."
...Robert Moses

---

There are so many pier projects instituted by the cruise lines it's hard to remember them all. I'll try to recap, as NY is only the tip of the iceberg.

NY
- Bayonne for RCI/Celebrity
- Brooklyn proposal for all Carnival brands.

Miami
- New piers developed by RCI and the Port of Miami for priority use by Royal Caribbean.
- Piers 8 & 9 developed and used exclusively for Carnival.

Los Angeles
- New pier developed in Long Beach adjacent to the QM by Carnival Corp. for priority use by Carnival Corp. brands.

Genoa
- New pier developed by Costa in neighboring Savona for exclusive use by all Costa ships and those in the Carnival family.

Pt. Canaveral
- New pier developed by Disney Cruise Lines to their specifications for exclusive use by DCL.

Under development:
Barcelona
- new pier being developed by Costa for exclusive use by all Carnival Corp. brands.

St. Thomas
- new pier development area being spearheaded by Carnival and Royal Caribbean as an alternative to the current facilities and as a way to decrease congestion while permitting more ships to dock.

Mexico
- several small ports on the East Coast of Mexico where the infrastructure is being built up to accommodate day calls by cruise ships.
- Cancun. Carnival Corp. is looking for a new turn-around port in the Cancun area. Carnival wants to develop their own facilities but currently it's being road blocked by several hotel associations in Cancun.

I'm sure that I've missed some other developments, but these are the major ones that come to mind. These days cruise lines are not only in the business of running ships, but port facilities as well.

Back to NY, I do hate to see ships leaving the West Side. It's truly a great experience to sail out of Manhattan, but I don't blame the cruise lines one bit. The port Directors of NY and other cities all over need to sit up and take notice. The cruise lines will no longer sit back and accept poor management, inflated costs, and dilapidated facilities. Either changes must be made or the cruise lines will take matters into their own hands, as they are already doing.

I think the cruise lines see NYC as a long term growth area, for obvious reasons, and are simply in the early stage of planting flags and setting up shop for the long-term.

If they improve port facilities in NYC proper, then the lines will stage larger ships out of there I'm sure. NYC will be a seasonal stop for many larger ships headed to the Caribbean anyway.

It would be a simpler thing to have remote staging areas, pre-check the passengers, get them on busses, and drop them directly at the port, and shuffle them directly onto the ships. Avoid the entire issue of cramped parking and bus areas entirely.

I will be curious if RCI has Voyager take a side trip to get closer to certain sites for the photo op people will expect, or if they'll just duck in and out of Bayonne.