It's interesting on a couple different levels. HAL seems to have acknowledged that the Vista Class is fine for what it is, essentially a more mass-market product aimed at shorter and more
saturated itineraries. I don't think the Vista Class is in the same league as the S-Class series, and apparently HAL does not either. Limiting the Vista Class to four ships is a good move, as so far
they are not proving very popular with the one ship already in service, and they certainly don't have the range and scope of the S-Class. Thankfully, we will not see another eight in this series nor
are they the future of HAL. HAL regulars can take a deep breath now! It's not they are so bad (when compared to other mass-market products), but they don't typify the traditional HAL product
that many hardcore HAL fans desire and expect.

By reducing this more mass appeal product to only four ships, it also gives us a hint as to the direction HAL is heading in. I would suspect Carnival Corp. wants to position Princess more in line with
Carnival, only slightly better but still with huge ships and generally appealing to the mid-range mass-market cruisers. HAL will probably focus more on it's Premium aspects and try to differentiate itself more and more from Princess, and more in line with Celebrity Cruises. Interestingly enough, these two brands will be all that's left of the so-called Premium market (or Premium mass-market as I like to title them).

Finally, what is unusual about the press release is talk of the next chapter in HAL's evolution. It's pretty rare for a cruise line to start talking about long term plans for another design of ship,
especially when they have three left to debut in the current series. Usually it's all hype about what is current. It's almost as if HAL is reassuring it's regular customers, "don't worry, there *will* be something beyond the Vista series".

I think this is good news for HAL fans and customers, and lets hope the next set of newbuilds are designed from scratch to HAL specifications... and not some hybrid off a previous Carnival
designed ship made to squeeze into the HAL mold (albeit barely).

Ernie

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For Immediate Release

HOLLAND AMERICA LINE DETAILS VISTA SERIES DELIVERIES

Seattle, WA - April 28, 2003 -- Holland America Line, the leader in premium cruising worldwide, is altering its new build schedule to include a change in the delivery date of Vista 4 from October 2005 to January 2006 and a change in the number of 1,848-passenger Vista ships from five to four. "Four 1,848-passenger Vista Class ships dedicated to the popular seven to 12 day Caribbean, Alaska and European cruise markets provides the necessary growth to meet our needs in this category of our premium cruise product," said A. Kirk Lanterman, chairman and CEO, Holland America Line Inc.

Holland America's Vista class ships extend the brand's premium positioning and will sail in the Caribbean, Alaska and Europe on the line's distinctive itineraries. The additional vessels will also allow Holland America to extend beyond its current 11 North American homeports.

"We are now going to begin to focus our efforts on conceptualizing of the next series of vessels beyond the Vista class, which will be designed specifically for longer, worldwide cruise itineraries," Lanterman continued. "Holland America is the industry leader in worldwide cruises. We currently sail to all seven continents and more than 280 ports of call. "

Holland America's current new build program includes delivery of Vista 2, the 1,848-passenger ms Oosterdam in July 2003 and of Vista 3, ms Westerdam, in May 2004. Vista 4, currently unnamed, will join the fleet in January 2006. Together with ms Zuiderdam, the first of the Vista series which debuted in December 2002, Holland America's capacity will grow 59 percent by early 2006.

With one of the highest passenger space ratio's afloat at 46, the Vista Class ships feature innovative "exterior elevators," located on both sides of the vessel and vertically traversing 10 decks, providing guests with panoramic sea views. The ships also offer a wide range of spacious accommodation categories, with 85 percent of the staterooms featuring an ocean view and 80 percent of those offering private verandahs.

The 951-foot-long vessels exhibit the hallmarks of the Holland America brand - extensive multi-million-dollar art collections and including numerous dining options, from elegant full-service meals to casual Lido Restaurant service. The new class of ship also continues such trademark features of Holland America ships as the Explorers Lounge, Ocean Bar, exterior covered promenade deck encircling the entire ship, large Lido pool with a retractable dome and Holland America's signature "Crow's Nest" observation lounge.

The ships also offer a new "cabaret-style" show lounge and an industry-leading main show lounge. Other new features include a disco, casual "round-the-clock" café, Internet cafe, the largest spa facilities in the fleet, Internet/e-mail data ports in all staterooms, an extensive Club HAL children's facility with inside and outside play areas, concierge lounge for the exclusive use of Penthouse and Deluxe Verandah Suite guests, and two interior promenade decks.

[ 05-08-2003: Message edited by: eroller ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ðraikar:
I think they should limit the Vista Class to just two ships. It will be some time before we see a new type of newbuilds for HAL.

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I would suspect we will see the new design right around late 2006, early 2007. This gives HAL three years to develop, design, and produce the first ship.

However, generic ships are not a new concept. Hull designs for example are often shared such as RCI’s Radiance and Celebrities Millennium classes.

Frankly I don't mind the Vista-class at all (having just been on one ) but I don't think they're great either.

What this means though is that we should be seeing new smaller ships (than what is being built now) which should be very interesting!

I only hope they don't make the kinds of silly errors in design that they made with the Vista-class...

And does HAL really need more than thirteen ships? (I'm assuming NOORDAM will be gone by then.)

I wonder if the new ships could actually be, say, a set of twins, smaller and faster than the S-class, replacing PRINSENDAM?

The years ahead are very interesting for HAL, meanwhile, I look forward to sailing again on their current fleet . I am not especially enthused by the Vista-class, but they still do more things right than any of the other lines we've tried lately (notably Princess and RCI).

quote:

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Originally posted by cruiseny:

Frankly I don't mind the Vista-class at all (having just been on one ) but I don't think they're great either.

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Your comment certainly makes the point regarding the lack of popularity regarding these ships. You are a fairly young and new cruiser, exactly what these Z-ships are trying to attract, and even you were not that impressed by them. There are WAY to many flaws for such a new design of ship... especially one that was copied from a tried and true design.

Now take that up a level to the traditional HAL passenger that has sailed HAL 10+ times, and you can see where the problems really begin. Most of these cruisers are not remotely attracted to ZUIDERDAM, and frankly the thought of HAL becoming a fleet of Z's really scares them. They love the S-Class ships and for good reason.

For them especially, I think HAL's recent press release is excellent news.... and a small part of me feels it was released just to calm the storm so to speak.

quote:

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Originally posted by eroller:
Most of these cruisers are not remotely attracted to ZUIDERDAM, and frankly the thought of HAL becoming a fleet of Z's really scares them. They love the S-Class ships and for good reason.

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Of course a decade ago the thought of HAL becoming a fleet of S-class ships scared them too .

quote:

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Originally posted by cruiseny:

Of course a decade ago the thought of HAL becoming a fleet of S-class ships scared them too .

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As I seem to recall, the S-Class was universally liked and accepted from day one. People may have been initially worried what they might look like (since Carnival just took over HAL), but once they were out they were well liked.

There was a little backlash about the design of the Crow's Nest, but this was quickly taken care of. The S-Class ships are well designed and fit extremely well into the HAL format. The Z-Class is a force fit.... interiors and cabins designed from the shell of a Carnival ship.

Two or maybe three of these ships would probably be enough for HAL IMO. Z-Ships are designed more for the 7-day milk runs... such as Alaska and the Caribbean, and maybe some Europe as well (12-day), and even in this regard they are having trouble competing against their primary competition. Rates for ZUIDERDAM are surprisingly low, even for today's times.

quote:

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Originally posted by Eroller:
The Z-Class is a force fit.... interiors and cabins designed from the shell of a Carnival ship.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Keitaro:

What Carnival ship would that be?

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Spirit Class. Includes:
CARNIVAL SPIRIT
CARNIVAL PRIDE
CARNIVAL LEGEND

The Vista Class is based on the same hull platform as these ships, with slightly less capacity due to more suites.

quote:

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Originally posted by miami cruiser:
Wasn't the first of this class the CostaAtlantica? I think she entered service before the Carnival Spirit.

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Correct, but even ATLANTICA is considered a Spirit Class ship... even though she came first.

I believe Carnival designed this class of ship for Carnival, and Costa just happened to get the first one as they needed the capacity.

quote:

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eroller said:
Spirit Class. Includes:
CARNIVAL SPIRIT
CARNIVAL PRIDE
CARNIVAL LEGEND

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quote:

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Originally posted by Keitaro:

OK, somehow I was thinking the ZAANDAM-class (I have no idea why...lol). BTW, did all these pre-ZUIDERDAM ships considered to be the S-class?

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I would say yes, although the latter in the series were altered and enhanced. A third staircase was added, slightly longer length, alternative restaurant, more suites, and the aft pool moved up a level. Other then that, the layouts are pretty much the same.

Kind of like Carnival referring to CARNIVAL CONQUEST as a new class of ship. In reality, she is a jumbo lengthened Destiny Class. Same could be said for CARIBBEAN PRINCESS. She is a jumbo-Grand Class rather then a whole new design of ship.

All these classes of ships seem to have evolved with each new ship.

quote:

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Originally posted by jsea:
What ever happened to cruise ships being designed by famous architects, like Enzo Piano? Regal Princess and A'ROSA BLU may not be the prettiest ships afloat, but they sure are unique, and that is more than you can say about most ships today

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quote:

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I think in a few years Princess will drop all ships smaller than the Grands and the Grander Grands and the Caribbean Grands and focus in on the Caribbean, Alaska, and Europe,

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Also the propulsion systems are different - in the SPIRIT-class ships you have six Wartsila 9L46 diesels, whereas the Vista class ships have five diesels and one gas turbine (not sure just what type any of them are).

quote:

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Originally posted by cruiseny:
Re: the Vistas being the same hull as the SPIRIT-class... From what the cruise lines themselves state, the SPIRIT-class ships are 963 feet long while the Vistas are 950 feet long. Can anyone confirm that they actually aren't the same length? If they aren't, why did HAL decide to shorten the hull a mere 13 feet (which I imagine is less than the length of one "building block")?

Also the propulsion systems are different - in the SPIRIT-class ships you have six Wartsila 9L46 diesels, whereas the Vista class ships have five diesels and one gas turbine (not sure just what type any of them are).

That said they are certainly related!

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Doug,
I think it has something to due with the fact that the Vista Class was built by Fincantieri and the Spirit Class by Masa-Yards. Each shipyard had specifications for their own design, and of course matched them to meet the buyers desires.

I do think the ships are a different length, and although they are closely related, they are by no means exact sisters. Kissing cousins you might say!

quote:

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Originally posted by jsea:
but what I want to know is who decided to switch up the last two with the help of Enzo Piano. I wonder if that was a move by Princess or by Sitmar?

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quote:

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Originally posted by jsea:
Yes, Star/Crown/Regal were originally designed by Sitmar, but what I want to know is who decided to switch up the last two with the help of Enzo Piano. I wonder if that was a move by Princess or by Sitmar?

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Sitmar.

They were never supposed to be identical at all... There was supposed to be another STAR but that never got built.

I think this is going to be the look of most all the new ships for some time to come until some new radical design becomes popular. The lines will change the bow, change the stern, change the funnel and the rest of the basic design is mostly the same story.

Come to think of it, most passengers ships have looked similar in design depending on the generation when they were built. There would always be one that broke the mold (like the Kaiser Wilhelm der Grosse, Bremen, Normandie, QE2, Royal Princess, Sovereign of the Seas, ect) and started a new design trend that was quickly copied.

I find it hard to believe that Crown/Regal were ordered before Star... is that true? Why would they make Crown/Regal so much nicer looking? In my opinion, Star is an ugly duckling on the outside.

quote:

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It is RENZO PIANO, not ENZO!

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Oops. I am getting his name confused with Enzo Ferrari's. Thanks.

And thanks for your explanation on Crown and Regal's history.