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» Cruise Talk   » Cruise Lines   » Is Berlitz reliable?

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Author Topic: Is Berlitz reliable?
jmperry1
First Class Passenger
Member # 1462

posted 09-29-2000 05:33 PM      Profile for jmperry1   Email jmperry1   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I recently read that Peter Dielmann obtained a judgement against the Berlitz guide to cruising in the German courts. Apparently, it was determined that Douglas Ward knowingly published false information about "Deutschland". All German language editions of the book were ordered destroyed.

Among other allegations made by Mr. Deilmann was that Mr. Ward "reviews" ships without sailing on them, and that he in effect extorts the cruises by conditioning good reviews on his being supplied special perks including airfare and complimentary accomadations.

I'd like to hear some feedback from the more knowledgable posters to this site. I've found Mr. Ward's guides useful in the past, but had determined that his tastes were so different from mine that I could not rely on his conclusions. Obviously, this new information, if true puts a whole new spin on things.

James

James


Posts: 71 | From: Oakland CA USA | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 09-29-2000 06:25 PM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A very interesting topic james. Any guide book is open to bias - but isn't everything. Opinions are very subjective. For example, see the two reviews on this web site of the 'Black watch' - the latter by myself. I would never put too much faith in the opinions expressed in just one source.

In 1998 when I cruised on Celebrity - everyone onboard rated the food as fantastic, except me. I though that it was pretty good, but hardly fantastic - but I appreciate that my opinion was not shared by the vast majority. Now I did think the food onboard the 4 star 'Black Watch' was fantastic. However no guide book or web review would agree with me!

I don't always see eye to eye with Ward's comments either, but the star ratings look reasonably accurate. After all it is pretty obvious that Seaborne are worth a top end score (five stars according to Betlitz) and Airtours (Sun) are worth somewhat less (3 stars according to Berlitz). I suppose the danger is in the middle ground. I personally would not be put off by a ship with a 3 or 4 star score, but I would probably avoid a 2 star ship.

It's a bit like being a food critic. I'd expect great food, great service and I would not expect to pay for it either! I suspect Ward always gets better treatment onboard than the rest of us would! He claims to spend nine months at sea each year. The court ruling is interesting - you would think that he would be entitled to give a ship a low score, if that was his opinion.

[This message has been edited by Malcolm (edited 09-30-2000).]


Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
Barryboat
First Class Passenger
Member # 33

posted 09-29-2000 11:55 PM      Profile for Barryboat   Author's Homepage   Email Barryboat   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If you look at how he actually comes up with his scores you would see that it is a number of values that he plugs into a formula. I think it's pretty accurate most of the time. But he does tend to lean towards perfection and often unobtainable features that he thinks a cruise ship should have. Ward is also an ocean liner buff in a sense, which is why he rates the QE2 so high.

One thing to remember is that Douglas Ward has a "team of trained 'professional passengers'", as he states in his book, who participate in making ship inspections, so if Ward doesn't inspect a ship himself, that is no reflection on his rating system. I think that this team of professional passengers makes for a more accurate rating, rather than just one man's opinion.

I also think that it is rediculous that Germany has banned this book...It's like hitler all over again....I guess it makes me glad that I live in a country that has the freedom we do.


Posts: 1851 | From: Bloomington, Minnesota (Home to the Mall of America) | Registered: Mar 99  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 09-30-2000 06:24 AM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not sure of the full details of the German objection, but I suspect that Peter Dielmann wanted five stars and a perfect review for his ship , but Ward provided somewhat less?

Is this the case?


Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
vulcania
First Class Passenger
Member # 822

posted 09-30-2000 09:52 AM      Profile for vulcania   Email vulcania   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
All of us who review ships for print (or internet) have preferences and prejudices and anyone who cares can easily discern where they lean...That said, the major difference between most reviewers and Travel Page cruise editors (Chris Smith and I) is that we prefer to PAY for our cruises which leaves us truly free to express our findings and opinions...which readers of our reviews know we do...(sometimes to your great consternation and contempt...) As for Doug Ward, he is a very busy traveler and spend little time aboard any one ship. When I met him aboard the ROYAL VIKING SUN, which he LOVES and I loathe, he was on for 3 days, Chris and I for the full cruise...he then left for two days in a Silversea ship, then a couple of days in another...you get the idea...Some reviewers of English mother tongue have expressed a bias against German speaking ships. The late Antoinette de Land (Fieldings) rated the msEUROPA four stars ONLY because of her nationality and language! Hapag Lloyd Cruises' "man in America" at the time, I tried to win her over and woo her to give us the rating our ship deserved but she took ill (and later DIED)... It is also important to remember a reviewer's connection to the business. Chris was for 20 years a travel agent; I was for the best part of 20 years a purser; marketing director, etc...I wish reviewer's backgrounds were also part of the game. Consider one woman who thought herself the ULTIMATE "cruise critic". Living in NYC she ate from salad bars from Asian owned delis or called in for Mexican food...she didn't have the background as a connoisseur yet she fancied herself THE expert...(Right you are if you think you are?) Some of us grew up lucky...with parents who could and did take us often in First Class to and from Europe...and to the "best" hotels and restaurants as well as lesser eateries. That experience gives you a different outlook on things though it does separate your outlook from the bulk of the observers...

As for Mr. Ward, he is a nice guy, perhaps he takes himself and his arithmetic rating formula a tad too seriously...and as far as "professional" passengers...well that is impossible. There is no such thing as a "professional passenger"..constant passenger, yes but a professional is a graduate with a degree...a physician, attorney or teacher, perhaps... There was a time he was rumored to have pressured a certain Greek cruise line for "emoluments" but I won't say he did that...
When you get too close to this business as I have, you get very strong feelings about ships, pro and con...As I say in my lectures about ships, particularly cruise ships, feel free to like what you like, love the ships you do but allow me to dislike what I dislike.


Posts: 182 | From: Baltimore, MD USA | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged
Patrick
First Class Passenger
Member # 364

posted 09-30-2000 11:44 AM      Profile for Patrick     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ratings are always subjective and everybody has his own taste I think.
In case of Douglas Ward I think he has his own favorites too.
There is an interesting report in the website "Das Ruderhaus" about the situation between Ward and Peter Deilmann. After from what I could read there, I think that Deilmann is the one who is absolutely right and he decided well to not have any of his ships published anymore in the Berlitz guide. But have a look on the article yourself.

Posts: 1680 | From: OSC Luxembourg | Registered: Nov 98  |  IP: Logged
jmperry1
First Class Passenger
Member # 1462

posted 09-30-2000 12:22 PM      Profile for jmperry1   Email jmperry1   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks to everyone for the feedback, this is exactly what I was hoping for. My original source was Raoul Frieberg's English language edition of "Das Ruderhaus."

I'm most intrigued by the difference between Malcom and Vulcania concerning who should pay when critics use a product. I've always had the impression that it was better if reviewers paid their own way. Indeed, in an ideal world, the reviewers would be unknown to those being reviewed. There is always a certain unsttled feeling that reviewers are being treated better than mere mortals.

Regarding Barryboat's comment, it was my understanding that the book was NOT banned because of any opinions expressed but because it contained at least twelve factual misstatements that Mr. Ward refused to correct and being informed of the errors.

James


Posts: 71 | From: Oakland CA USA | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
oe
First Class Passenger
Member # 1460

posted 09-30-2000 03:24 PM      Profile for oe   Author's Homepage   Email oe   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

Hi Barryboat, greetings from Germany to Bloomington, btw. we´re in June 99 there for visiting the Mall of America, had so much fun ! But your words: "I also think that it is rediculous that Germany has banned this
book...It's like hitler all over again...." didn´t hit the point. We can buy the book for DM 49,50.(US$ 23) 623 pages, 255 ships and so on. even with the HapagLoyds "Europa" on the cover!! Seems to me we´ll get it again, like last year, not in german language, special thanks to Peter Deilmann
To Patrick, did you read the new "anBord"? See add page 37 and the "strandgut" page 39 under the topic "Berlitz 2001" They lost not one word about new trouble between Deilmann and Ward.
And also not one word for the sad Concord Crash, I guess they lost also some faith reader´s! But a whole page (#3)with "Sternstunden deutscher Kreuzfahrttradition"...Sometimes it seems they are the Deilmann Cruise magazin !

Posts: 14 | From: Germany | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
oe
First Class Passenger
Member # 1460

posted 09-30-2000 03:44 PM      Profile for oe   Author's Homepage   Email oe   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
...and joe, a serious question what I have to do, to become a "First Class Passenger" ??????????!
PLEASE !!!

[This message has been edited by oe (edited 09-30-2000).]


Posts: 14 | From: Germany | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Barryboat
First Class Passenger
Member # 33

posted 09-30-2000 09:15 PM      Profile for Barryboat   Author's Homepage   Email Barryboat   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Vulcania, a professional passenger, is someone who gets paid to go on cruises. Which is what Ward and his Professional Passengers get...some sort of $$$$. Maybe by Berlitz? Book sales??

Mr. Ward is definitely a details guys.

I thought someone said that Germany had banned the book...which I thought was odd...how can a country ban a book, and why a book about cruising? I can understand a country banning a book like the Bible which is a life-changing book that may go against the grain of a whole countries beliefs, (which I think it is wrong, by the way, to ban the Bible), but a book on cruise ships??


Posts: 1851 | From: Bloomington, Minnesota (Home to the Mall of America) | Registered: Mar 99  |  IP: Logged
vulcania
First Class Passenger
Member # 822

posted 10-01-2000 12:36 AM      Profile for vulcania   Email vulcania   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Barryboat - the only ones who are paid to sail are crew. "Professional passengers" strike me as those who help other writers prepare reviews of ships they haven't sailed in. Take it from one who knows, reviewing cruise ships pays VERY poorly and no one who writes reviews can afford to PAY anyone to cruise for him/her.
Posts: 182 | From: Baltimore, MD USA | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged
Cambodge
First Class Passenger
Member # 906

posted 10-01-2000 08:28 AM      Profile for Cambodge   Email Cambodge   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I might address the "professional passenger" issue, by making a comparison to the "Write a review of this book" on Amazon, or the "I liked/did not like" this particular piece of audio/video/computer equipment on sites vending such items. This and other cruise sites have such, but we do not know the background of the reviewer and where he/she is coming from.

If said professional passenger would put his/her CV in this area up front, I would welcome the input.

I would like to have more than one point of view, but after they all have been encapsulated by one "Point Reviewer" (presumaby salaried or on perks) we could well end up with the old classic example of:..."An Unbiased History of the Civil War from the Southern Side!"

[This message has been edited by Cambodge (edited 10-01-2000).]


Posts: 2149 | From: St. Michaels MD USA , the town that fooled the British! | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged

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