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Author Topic: Steamships
Cambodge
First Class Passenger
Member # 906

posted 02-26-2004 09:04 PM      Profile for Cambodge   Email Cambodge   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There was a dissertation not too long ago about the shrinking number of surviving steam-powered ships and their potential future.

On a mediocre TV program about the Andrea Doria, which I viewed last night, the producers, in the often stupid way that they do to make a point, indicated engine-room action with a wild menage of flying piston rods and such. Obviously, reversing a turbine is not fodder for the filmmakers! But it got me to thinking.

As a long-time afficianado of recipprocating steam power, particularly as applied to steam locomotives, I wonder how many steam reciprocating powered vessels are operational today?

OK, Frank Prudent, I know about the Delta Queen and her sisters, and there are other riverboats with flailing rods and hissing cylinders. Belle of Louisville, Nachez among others.

So, let us leave out lake and river vessels, for the nonce, and address the question, "are there any "up-and-downers" left in maritime service?

Immediately the two preserved Liberty Ships on each coast of the USA come to mind. The original Liberties were fitted with tripple-expansion steam, but later models were, I believe, turbine-powered.

Or were all Liberties reciprocating and was it the later "Victory ships" which went to turbines? Elsewhere are pistons pumping up and down in relative technical obscurity? Or in the case of the Mississippi river boats, forward and back?


Posts: 2149 | From: St. Michaels MD USA , the town that fooled the British! | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
feargus
First Class Passenger
Member # 3982

posted 02-28-2004 12:04 PM      Profile for feargus   Email feargus   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
P.S. Waverley. she is used for day trips around the U.K. coast has steam recips. Back and forth i think.
she is classed as sea going although never goes to far from the coast.

Posts: 249 | From: Halifax,Canada / Abu Dhabi, UAE | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Marlowe
First Class Passenger
Member # 1632

posted 02-28-2004 11:54 PM      Profile for Marlowe   Email Marlowe   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
All 2710 Liberty Ships (Maritime Commission design EC2-S-C1)
had a 2500HP triple expansion reciprocating steam engine built by one of 14 different machine works in the country (the full list of the makers and engine specs can be found at
http://www.asme.org/history/brochures/h098.pdf)

The 438 Victory Ships (Maritime Commission design VC2-S-A1)

had Cross-compound steam turbine engines with double reduction gears which were designed to deliver either 6,000 or 8,500 horsepower depending on the yard and particular contract. (much more info on the Victory ship design can be found at http://www.americanvictory.org/History/history.htm)

With regards to ships currently working around the word which might have steam reciprocating engines, isn't the train ferry BADGER still in operation?

[ 02-29-2004: Message edited by: Marlowe ]


Posts: 414 | From: mt. vernon, wa, usa | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Cambodge
First Class Passenger
Member # 906

posted 02-29-2004 09:34 PM      Profile for Cambodge   Email Cambodge   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I just googled SS Badger and found that she is indeed still in service and offers a full 2004 schedule.

Technical details of the ship are available here:
http://www.asme.org/history/roster/H191.html

Coal-fired 3500 hp steam reciprocating engines.
right out of the past, although the ship was built in 1952!

And a 22-24 kt speed. Not bad.

[ 02-29-2004: Message edited by: Cambodge ]


Posts: 2149 | From: St. Michaels MD USA , the town that fooled the British! | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
RuthPerk
First Class Passenger
Member # 1609

posted 03-01-2004 08:16 AM      Profile for RuthPerk   Email RuthPerk   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cambodge:
I just googled SS Badger and found that she is indeed still in service and offers a full 2004 schedule.

Technical details of the ship are available here:
http://www.asme.org/history/roster/H191.html

Coal-fired 3500 hp steam reciprocating engines.
right out of the past, although the ship was built in 1952!

And a 22-24 kt speed. Not bad.

[ 02-29-2004: Message edited by: Cambodge ]



And she's a lot of fun to sail on, too! We sailed on her in September 2001 and are looking forward to going again!

Her website is:
here


Posts: 329 | From: Victor, NY, USA | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
Cambodge
First Class Passenger
Member # 906

posted 03-02-2004 03:48 PM      Profile for Cambodge   Email Cambodge   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Are visits to the engine room permitted?
Posts: 2149 | From: St. Michaels MD USA , the town that fooled the British! | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Marlowe
First Class Passenger
Member # 1632

posted 03-03-2004 12:30 AM      Profile for Marlowe   Email Marlowe   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If you do get into the BADGER's engineroom don't expect to see a wildly whirling pair of steam recip engines...the Skinner Uniflow actually looks like a diesel having a completely enclosed crankbed and frame. Also, all the cylinders are of the same diameter so they don't have the distictive shape a multi expansion engine when seen from above.
Posts: 414 | From: mt. vernon, wa, usa | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Frank X. Prudent
First Class Passenger
Member # 1723

posted 03-05-2004 12:17 PM      Profile for Frank X. Prudent   Email Frank X. Prudent   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It about takes an Act of Congress to get into the BADGER's engineroom. I've never been there, although I've certainly asked!

The VIRGINIA V. in Seattle, WA. is operating once again after a several year hiatus for U.S.C.G. mandated wooden hull work. I'm not sure if she is compound or triple compound. She is the last survivor of the famous Mosquito Fleet.

In Canada the side wheel ferry TRILLIUM operates charter trips around Toronto Harbor. She is the only steam sidewheeler, that I am aware of, that still carries passengers for hire in North America.

The R.M.S. SEGWUN operates trips out of Gravenhurst, Ontario on Muskoka Lake. She has two compound engines, and it's a real treat to stand beside them and watch their valve-gear and piston-rods gymnastics! She is also the oldest operating steamboat in North America; she was built as a sidewheeler in the 1887 at Clydebank. Although her present steam machinery dates to the early 1900's. She is coal fired by hand, and it's quite interesing watching her being fired.

The S.S. PUMPER operates public trips and charters out of Niagara-on-the Lake, Ontario during the summer tourist season. She has a compound engine and burns wood.

The SABINO operates out of Mystic Seaport, Conn. She too is coal fired by hand. I'm not sure what type of engines she has.


Posts: 577 | From: Covington, Kentucky, U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged
Cambodge
First Class Passenger
Member # 906

posted 03-05-2004 05:53 PM      Profile for Cambodge   Email Cambodge   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A lovely, but now gone, walking-beam steam sidewheeler was the "Mt. Washington," which operated on Lake Winnepesaukee in New Hampshire in the 1930s. A wooden vessel, it burned when its pier caught fire at "The Weirs." (now renamed "Weirs Beach.") Firemen could not reach it because of the intensity of the fire. Now a metal oil-fired screw-propellor ship "Mt. Washington II" has replaced it. "II" is a more sterile vessel.

In 1936, my family and I took an all-day cruse on this ship. I remember the drill as if it were yesterday..it was so dramatic. One could stand on the weather deck, and peer into the area where the shaft joined the two paddle wheels. This space was occupied by a very strong man, who had a large crowbar.

And this is the way it went. Bell sounded from the bridge. Man opened a steam valve in the overhead. Much steam and wheezing. He then inserted the crowbar into a hole in the aforementioned axle, and walked it forward. In fact he was manually, ever-so-slowly starting the rotation of the paddles. A great "whoosh" took place when after he moved some ten steps or less. He removed the crowbar; walked back to his original station; re-inserted the crowbar and walked it forward again. This time he was assisted by what I assume was very low-presure steam. Another walk, another "whoosh" and we were begining to move. After about four such excursions, with sequential whooshes and chuffs, the steam began to turn the axle and the paddlewheels with less and less help.

A parallel could be made to starting a child on a swing. After a few oscilations, the pusher requires less effort.

After he was connvinced that the steam was now doing the work, he stacked the crowbar back where it belonged; wiped his brow; and disappeared below. And the "Mt Washington" began its scenic cruise around the Lake.

How he executed "full astern," I do not know. I cannot see him jamming the crowbar into the rotating axle shaft. Any thoughts?

Fascinating!

[ 03-05-2004: Message edited by: Cambodge ]


Posts: 2149 | From: St. Michaels MD USA , the town that fooled the British! | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
gohaze
First Class Passenger
Member # 586

posted 03-05-2004 07:13 PM      Profile for gohaze   Email gohaze   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Probably just turned off the steam until she stopped and he was able to do the process in reverse.
....peter

Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged
Cambodge
First Class Passenger
Member # 906

posted 03-05-2004 08:49 PM      Profile for Cambodge   Email Cambodge   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Peter - I thought of that.

But, just think of the scenario. He shuts down steam, OK, the vessel is moving at, say 8kts and weights a few hundred tons. The motion would keep the paddles turning for some time, probably a matter of minutes, and the vessel would cover considerable ground. Finally, when the ship as at dead stop, then and only then could he reinsert the crowbar for the reverse operation.

I just have a feeling - and I have not thought about this for almost 70 years, they must have been able to feed reversing steam to the pistons, as is done on a steam locomotive. This would at least stop the paddles, even if the vessel is in forward motion. They always made smooth dockings as I recall (as an eight-year old kid!)

Still puzzled.


Posts: 2149 | From: St. Michaels MD USA , the town that fooled the British! | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
moodus2
First Class Passenger
Member # 2414

posted 03-06-2004 01:16 AM      Profile for moodus2   Email moodus2   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
if one wanted to build a steamship could coal be legally
used as fuel for a newbuild?
would the eviromental protection
agency allow the use of coal?

Posts: 473 | From: moodus,ct. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Marlowe
First Class Passenger
Member # 1632

posted 03-06-2004 11:37 PM      Profile for Marlowe   Email Marlowe   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
During the oil crisis in the 70's various concepts were considered to fire ship's boilers with coal again which would involve crushing the coal to a fine powder and blowing it into the combustion chamber with high pressure air. Supposedly, this arrangement created a near 100% burning of the coal without the ever present black soot which were the bain of ships which were traditionally stoked.

Don't know if this ever got past the concept stage?


Posts: 414 | From: mt. vernon, wa, usa | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Cambodge
First Class Passenger
Member # 906

posted 03-07-2004 08:17 AM      Profile for Cambodge   Email Cambodge   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There was at least one contemporary coal-fired ship in US coastal trade.

In the mid-1980s, I was on a consulting contract for the US Department of Energy, in which environmentally acceptable coal-combustion systems were studied.

Our team visited a coastal coal-transport vessel called "American Independence" which was owned, as I remember, by New England Electric Power and carried coal from the Norfolk/Newport News coal terminals to power plants in Connectiicut and Massachusetts. It was said to be the only operating commercial coal-fired ship in existence

I visited it very briefly. It was a relatively new ship, American flagged and operated. I believe it was in the 10- 20000- ton range.

While the bridge and living spaces were imaculate, there was a thin film of coal dust over the gauges in the engine room - you can't get it all!

[ 03-07-2004: Message edited by: Cambodge ]


Posts: 2149 | From: St. Michaels MD USA , the town that fooled the British! | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Cambodge
First Class Passenger
Member # 906

posted 03-15-2004 02:40 PM      Profile for Cambodge   Email Cambodge   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A thought so simple I could kick myself suddenly hit me re: "the man and the crowbar" and his role in getting the walking-beam sidewheeler "Mt. Washington" under way.

It was the "top-dead-center" problem. I was looking at my telephone-model of a Southern Railroad "Pacific," yesterday. [the phone rings with digitally encoded grade crossing bells, whistles, steam, and 'clackety clack' - startling guests no end.] when I noticed that the makers of the model (in China of course) did not "quarter" the drivers. Now to the uniniated, this means that the rods which extend from the pistons to the major bearings on the locomotive's driving wheels must be 45-degrees apart, or "quartered." Were they not, there could come a time when the pistons are either all-the way forward, or all the way back, and no matter how much steam; and no matter how much pressure is brought to bear, the locomotive will not move. This situation is called "top dead center."

The drivers on my telephone model were not quartered. I usually look at the left side of the locomotive, as that is the way it sits on the table. Yesterday I happened to look at it "head on." the drivers were in identical positions...operationally impossible...even in China!

Light dawned! OK, back to the "Mt Washington." There would be a time when the piston (there was only one - - a big one) was all the way up or down, and the vessel would not move. In other words, the power plant would be at "top dead center."

Enter the man with the crowbar, who would move the machinery to such a location where steam could enter the piston and move it in the appropriate direction.

'Tis indeed wondrous when one is retired and can spare the time to meditate about such trivia!

[ 03-15-2004: Message edited by: Cambodge ]


Posts: 2149 | From: St. Michaels MD USA , the town that fooled the British! | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Maasdam
First Class Passenger
Member # 3858

posted 03-16-2004 07:55 AM      Profile for Maasdam   Author's Homepage   Email Maasdam   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This very powerfull picture frome the Holland America Line's ss. Rotterdam 4 (1908)
You see she is a real steamer. Picture was taken when she steamed to Boulogne sur Mer one here way to New York in the midt 20's.


Posts: 4695 | From: Rotterdam home of the tss. Rotterdam. | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frank X. Prudent
First Class Passenger
Member # 1723

posted 03-17-2004 02:58 AM      Profile for Frank X. Prudent   Email Frank X. Prudent   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Steam sternwheelers have their cranks set at a ninety degree angle which helps to keep the wheel being cought on dead center. One engine might end up on center, and so long as it's not the high pressure engine of a cross-compound set of engines, they would be pretty good to go. If it is a cross-compound set up, like the Str. DELTA QUEEN, the low pressure cylinder can get a shot of live steam and get her off of center!

Now, Mississippi River style sidewheelers which have one horizontal steam engine attached to each independent wheel is another story. Woe be it to to the hapless striker (oiler) or engineer who would let her get hung up on center. Sometimes she might roll off by herself, but not always.

The film classic "Uncle Tom's Cabin" has some wonderful shots of the engineroom and steam machinery of the beautiful Mississippi/Ohio River sidewheeler KATE ADAMS.


Posts: 577 | From: Covington, Kentucky, U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged

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