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»	Cruise Talk » Technically Speaking » Stretching too far?

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Topic: Stretching too far?

sslewis
First Class Passenger
Member # 3649

posted 10-13-2003 07:21 PM

A few years ago, a small entry in Lloyd's List alerted me of an impending storm on the high seas.
It was reporting that ms Carousel had turned around in mid-Atlantic because of an inrush of water in her hull. Passengers were safely disembarked. Medias were not too hot on it.
yet, it heralded the coming of age of the revolutionary ships of the 70's.
They were victims of their own success, and had to be stretched.
It is amazing to see the vessel's bow and stern towed apart, with a new midship section floating nearby!
Yet, at least two of these vessels had serious seawater ingress, lately ms Sundream.
Anymore incidenta of this nature?

Posts: 2513 | From: Shipspotting Solent shores when weather allows.... | Registered: Feb 2003 | IP: Logged

kph06
First Class Passenger
Member # 3506

posted 10-13-2003 07:33 PM

Hi,

To me stretching a ship always seemed like it would weaken the ship. From the pictures of the NCL stretches and now the Pride of America stretch it apears there is a straight welded seam right up the height of the ship. When ever I used to build things of lego I was always told to have the pieces overlapping like bricks on a house and not directly over the one below it. I'm sure engineer's spent many hours makeing the design strong and safe but the fact of the ship breacking at the new welds would be at the back of my mind.

kevin

P.S - does anyone have any photos of the RCCL ships being stretched?

Posts: 150 | From: Halifax, Canada | Registered: Nov 2002 | IP: Logged

Onno
First Class Passenger
Member # 3071

posted 10-13-2003 07:35 PM

Interesting subject! I can imagine that “cutting” a ship in half that was build as a solid/single object can result in unpredictable outcomes. The integrity of the hull has been breached and “sticking” the halves together with an extra piece in-between must be weaker then before.But if it is big enough to cause problems I have no idea. Maybe research in other vessels that have been stretched could give some clues. Costa Europa and Black Watch have been stretched as well during some point in their careers, maybe someone know of similar mishaps to these ships because of their stretching?

Best, Onno

Posts: 3583 | From: the Netherlands (Berenbotje ging uit varen...) | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged

Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 10-13-2003 07:38 PM

Quite a number of cruise ships have been stretched over the years, i.e. Dreamward, Windward, Black Watch , to name but a few. I’m not aware that the stretching of any of them has caused problems?

Modern ships have welded hull plates. The builders say that the welds of the stretched hull are as strong as all the other welds on the plates. The ship is no more likely to come un-stuck at the join, that anywhere else!

MyTravel’s problems are probably due to operating an aging fleet. This is not uncommon on older ships, even the QE2 has had its fair share of problems, including cracks in the superstructure.

[ 10-13-2003: Message edited by: Malcolm @ cruisepage ]

Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago! | IP: Logged

Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 10-13-2003 07:43 PM

quote:
Originally posted by sslewis:
Yet, at least two of these vessels had serious seawater ingress...

...but not necessarily anything to do with the hull stretch!

Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago! | IP: Logged

gohaze
First Class Passenger
Member # 586

posted 10-13-2003 08:18 PM

Today's ships are built in drydock where very large sections are joined together. It's not the length of a weld that's so important, it's the quality of the material and workmanship that counts and the control on it.

The wartime built Liberties are a good example of ships developing cracks because of poor welding, but then some of them lasted 30 years too.

Now we have automated machine welding which is computer controlled so the unknown is the idiot who does the Gi-Go.

BTW....all three of the Royal Viking Sisters were stretched. However the most unique stretching of all are the BC Ferries. They were not only lengthened but later sliced in half horizontally and an extra deck inserted.

....peter

Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99 | IP: Logged

sslewis
First Class Passenger
Member # 3649

posted 10-14-2003 10:26 AM

Malcom,
my sincere apologies for the misunderstanding about Sundream.
Pacific Sky oblige!
I read that she just hit the pier and was delayed by two days, skipping ports to make up lost time.
Passengers got £100 compensation.
But the debate goes on.
Carousel did have a major water ingress a few years ago, and it was in the stretched area.
I can't read Lloyd's List casualty reports, but, this incident was not reported by the press.
So, I am wondering if any of the other stretched ship had any problems?
Most stretched ships were sold to other operators who seemsd to have less media exposure.
It still remains an incredible feat, and I wonder why most ships were sold within a short time of such an investment.
ssLewis

Posts: 2513 | From: Shipspotting Solent shores when weather allows.... | Registered: Feb 2003 | IP: Logged

Mike01
First Class Passenger
Member # 4210

posted 10-14-2003 11:26 AM

GoHaze is correct. It is the quality of the weld that is of paramount importance. In many cases the welded seam can be stronger (and usually more rigid) than the steel that is being welded together. Often failures occur just outside the seam itself.

I remember reading that when Disney build their two ships, the bow and stern were assembled in different shipyards and then towed to eachother to be mated together. This is nothing new, ships have been lengthened for decades, you just have to trust that your welding crews know what they are doing.

I would be more worried about the time that my wife was knocked out of bed when the Carnival Victory decided to see how much paint could be removed from the side of a ship when it glides 120 feet down a concrete pier. Those are hull stresses than engineers prefer not to have to deal with when they design a ship.

Posts: 17 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2003 | IP: Logged

sslewis
First Class Passenger
Member # 3649

posted 10-19-2003 06:06 PM

Gohaze,
to elaborate on vertical stretching, Hapag-Lloyd did such a job with the Townsend Thoresen feries.
They later operated on the Lehavre and Cherbourg routes fron Portsmouth UK.
It was quite a weird stretch, necessitating the addition of bulges on the side to improve stability, and avenging msOranje!
Amazing to see how many ferries and cruise ships were bulged thanks to SOLAS afterwards!
I saw an extraordinary vessel in Civitavecchia. It was a ferry with the worst case of vertical stretch in history. At least 4 decks were added, and I was expecting it to topple over at any turn.
ssLewis

Posts: 2513 | From: Shipspotting Solent shores when weather allows.... | Registered: Feb 2003 | IP: Logged

gohaze
First Class Passenger
Member # 586

posted 10-19-2003 07:14 PM

AJL's Ship of the Week is the Avila of Blue Star Line. She was lengthened in 1935 and fitted with a maierform bow as well.

I mentioned the Liberties above, some of them were given an extra hold midships and funnily enoigh they used to gain about a knot extra speed despite the increased displacement.

Then again some T2 tankers had their bows and aft ends cut off and attached to new midsections increasing the tonnage from about 20,000 to 50,000 with the same power.

Lots of it been done....peter

Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99 | IP: Logged

Cambodge
First Class Passenger
Member # 906

posted 10-19-2003 10:28 PM

HOWEVER:

Those of a certain age here may remember that the venerable T-2 tankers were stretched in the post WW2 period, long before supertankers were around and about....

...and many broke apart with increasing frequency in the early 1950s. Remember ship designers calculated hog and sag and weight distribution based on the original designs.

...mayhap they did not respond to enlargement in a linear, but rather in in exponential manner...

..or I may not know whatinthehell I am talking about..Consider these observations, not technical conclusions.

Posts: 2149 | From: St. Michaels MD USA , the town that fooled the British! | Registered: Nov 1999 | IP: Logged

gohaze
First Class Passenger
Member # 586

posted 10-20-2003 07:07 PM

Cambodge....the T2s that broke in two were the originals. In fact one did it alongside in the shipyard when she was new - there's a picture out there somewhere of it.
They suffered from the same problem of poor welding, added to by the inexperienced officers who manned them, not knowing how to handle the cargo properly.
With the lengthened T2s I mentioned the whole cargo section of the hull was new and I never heard of them having any problems.

...peter

Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99 | IP: Logged

sslewis
First Class Passenger
Member # 3649

posted 10-21-2003 10:57 AM

I know that in the 80's, stretching was quite common to save newbuild investments.
I saw a picture of a handsome containership, MSC Carla, broken in half in 1998.
Was she stretched?
What about those large tankers?
ssLewis

Posts: 2513 | From: Shipspotting Solent shores when weather allows.... | Registered: Feb 2003 | IP: Logged

PamM
First Class Passenger
Member # 2127

posted 10-21-2003 02:13 PM

MSC Carla was in force 11/12 gales and was hit by an abnormal wave. I don't think she'd been stretched? All those $700 bottles of Armagnac! Half of her still floated and was towed to the Canary Islands.
Post your photo!
Jahre Viking was stretched and she's survived well. So much so, no-one seems to even be able to recall or find out what her original tonnage was.
Pam

Posts: 12176 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

sslewis
First Class Passenger
Member # 3649

posted 10-23-2003 11:33 AM

Pam,
ubb would not work, but I think that you have a copy of MSCCarla.
ssLewis

Posts: 2513 | From: Shipspotting Solent shores when weather allows.... | Registered: Feb 2003 | IP: Logged

PamM
First Class Passenger
Member # 2127

posted 10-24-2003 06:12 AM

Here you go. She broke in half on the evening of 24/25 Nov 1997 off the Azores in a storm, the bow section sank on 30 Nov, and the stern was towed to the Canary Islands arriving at the end of March 1998. She had some important cargo aboard too

Pam

Posts: 12176 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

ScottQE2
First Class Passenger
Member # 4180

posted 10-24-2003 10:02 AM

Leave it to you Pam, to come up with a great picture! Thanks for sharing it.

Posts: 165 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2003 | IP: Logged

PamM
First Class Passenger
Member # 2127

posted 10-24-2003 11:29 AM

ScottQE2, no not me, ssLewis sent me the picture a while back, when I went on MSC Melody, trying to scare me I think

Looks like it's been scanned out of a magazine? Whatever it's an interesting picture. 4 months at sea, not in the calmest of oceans either, in that condition. Seems amazing she survived like that.
Pam

Posts: 12176 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

gohaze
First Class Passenger
Member # 586

posted 10-24-2003 12:07 PM

She had a midship section inserted in 1984 by Hyundai Shipyard in Korea. The split is on one of the joins which could indicate poor workmanship or quality control.

.....peter

Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99 | IP: Logged

PamM
First Class Passenger
Member # 2127

posted 10-24-2003 05:01 PM

Here is a photo of the forward section, found by Gohaze on the net, thanks.

Pam

Posts: 12176 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

PamM
First Class Passenger
Member # 2127

posted 10-24-2003 05:11 PM

..and a few more pics:-

The dates I quoted above appear to be different:-
"The stern section was taken in tow and arrived off Las Palmas December 16, 1997.
On December 20, 1997 she berthed at Las Palmas to discharge the remaining 587 containers.
The stern section of the "MSC Carla" arrived at Gijon in tow of a Tsavliris tug on January 31, 1998 to be broken up." so maybe not as long at sea as 1st suspected.
Pam

Posts: 12176 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

sslewis
First Class Passenger
Member # 3649

posted 10-28-2003 07:54 AM

Many thanks for your infos Pam and Peter!
I knew it ! She got stretched somewhere.
What was her name as new? Was she ever chartered by Maersk?
Anyway, many of her kind have now been beached.
Now, I must find out about Carousel infamous aborted Transatlantic in 1997....
ssLewis

Posts: 2513 | From: Shipspotting Solent shores when weather allows.... | Registered: Feb 2003 | IP: Logged

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