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You have to start with the stability designed into all the liners built for the Western Ocean and their inherent problems. They had high fuel consumption and most people don't realise that, unlike these days when it's made on board, they carried the fresh water they used - quite a tonnage.
So, at the beginning of the voyage, with FO & FW tanks full, they were stiff ships (lots of stability and a fast roll) but towards the end with MT tanks the stability was getting marginal with a slow roll. If it became critical then Fuel tanks could of course be ballasted to inprove things but this was discouraged as it meant getting rid of dirty ballast at the end of the voyage when you needed the time for loading bunkers.
With the 2 Queens and their extra tonnage high up they must have had to watch things very closely. Their running at high speed was of course their safety and that meant driving them even in bad weather which is why they didn't zig-zag. It took more time in the danger zone and used more fuel they didn't have.An example of the pressures they sailed under is when the cruiser HMS Curacao cut across the bow and was sliced in two and sunk and they couldn't even slow down.
...peter
With the U-Boats limited to 20knots at flank speed on the surface one of the 30+knot ocean liners could fly past them long before they could get into position to take a shot. The only chance a submarine would have would be dumb luck that they are directly in the steaming path and they take a bow shot. Those odds are pretty slim in an ocean and to lurk on the surface was dangerous with allied air cover scowering the seas for targets.
Towards the end of the war many convoys stopped zigzaging once the escort "baby" flatops were available. If you have a 30 plane aircraft carrier with search aircraft abort it was almost certain death for a German submarine to make and approach and attack. The would run out of battery power long before the carriers aircraft were out of range.
The sort of roll that you've descibed could have been caused by "Free Surface Effect" which is what you get when a tank is partly filled/empty. A FULL tank is the same as a solid block, but the liquid in a partly-filled tank is free to move and does when a ship rolls thus tending to add to the roll and thereby decreasing the stability.If you have a lot of tanks, and the Queens did, then the FSE can become noticeable if they are not either full or empty. BTW...Brit engineers were notorious for slack tanks and always sailing with a list.Because of the built in delay of the liquids starting to move when the ship rolls, you can have that hesitation as it catches up and pushes it further over.Hope that helps....I'm inclined to think that 15 deg + is exagerating it a bit tho'.
The other things you describe were standard, nothing unusual. All tables were secured to the deck, the chairs had chains underneath to secure them to lugs in the deck, the wooden lips, called fiddles were standard on all tables and the tablecloths were wetted down too.
Vibration was a common problem with new ships and frequently due to the pitch on the propeller(s). Pitch, number of blades and design has always been more of a "black art" than a science. Look at I.K.Brunel's propeller on the Great Britain, some of today's experts with all their computers have trouble matching his HP/Spd. They had to rebuild the aft end on those new Celebrity ships because of it.
.....peter
I still doubt that the Mary was zig-zagging at the time. To zig-zag was an anti-submarine manoevre for slower ships to confuse submerged U-boats. Speed was the safety factor for fast ships, especially ones like the Queens. The shortest distance in the shortest time exposed, and taking into account the critical fuel/water consumption.
The reason for the Curacao being there was because she was acting as an anti-aircraft escort. The Curacao class of Light Cruisers had been re-fitted as Anti-aircraft vessels (speed 29kts) and the Mary was then within range of enemy bombers on approaching the coast.
It's an escorts job to keep clear of the 'escorted', especially when there is a large difference in sheer size and manoevrability which is only common sense. Even if the Mary was changing course at the time, it would have been done slowly simply because of the stability problems which have been discussed above, and which would have been getting critical as the voyage ended.
Thus it would have been impossible for her to have "T-boned" the Curacao. What happened was that the cruiser for some reason was changing her escort position from one bow of the Mary to the other and the Captain totally misjudged the relative position/speed and suddenly found himself right under the bow of the oncoming ship with nowhere to go. He may even in fact gone hard over in a last second attempt to clear his stern.
Very sad, and probably caused by fatigue which was an occupational hazard of the times.
....peter
"When it was approaching the Clyde the Queen Mary required an anti-aircraft escort, amongst these was the cruiser HMS Curacoa. On 2 October the escort ships were sighted. The Queen Mary was steaming at 28 knots in zig-zag pattern whilst the Curacoa, whose best speed was 26 knots, kept as close as possible. The Queen Mary overtook its escort and then the zig-zag pattern of the two ships converged and it collided with the Curacoa close to its stern and sliced straight through the ship. Out of 430 crew members on the cruiser only 101 survived. Although there was damage beneath the waterline the Queen Mary was able to continue. With over 11,000 troops on board the Queen Mary could not stop to assist and it sailed straight to the Clyde. A long legal battle between the Admiralty and Cunard eventually laid the blame equally on both vessels."
Here's an eyewitness account:
quote:The Royal Navy anti-aircraft cruiser Curacoa came out to meet the Queen Mary to form part of her escort through the Irish Sea. They rendezvoused northwest of the aptly-named Bloody Foreland of Donegal. Vince remembered seeing the cruiser approach very rapidly as he watched from the railings. A small ship of under 5,000 tons, the World War I-era light cruiser seemed not much bigger than the American destroyers that often shepherded the convoy across the cold North Atlantic. Warning claxons broke Vince’s reverie: submarines had been sighted near the convoy. The Curacoa immediately went into a rapid zig-zag pattern. To Vince’s horror the cruiser cut in front of the Queen Mary. There was no collision, not in the usual, awful sense of the word. The huge liner, sixteen times the displacement of the cruiser, cleanly cut the Curacoa in half amidships. The liner sped right through the brilliant camouflage of the cruiser’s port side. The Queen barely shuddered as she ploughed ahead -- striking the cruiser as if she wasn’t there – and in a few minutes, she wasn’t.
Vince remembered seeing the cruiser approach very rapidly as he watched from the railings. A small ship of under 5,000 tons, the World War I-era light cruiser seemed not much bigger than the American destroyers that often shepherded the convoy across the cold North Atlantic.
Warning claxons broke Vince’s reverie: submarines had been sighted near the convoy. The Curacoa immediately went into a rapid zig-zag pattern. To Vince’s horror the cruiser cut in front of the Queen Mary.
There was no collision, not in the usual, awful sense of the word. The huge liner, sixteen times the displacement of the cruiser, cleanly cut the Curacoa in half amidships. The liner sped right through the brilliant camouflage of the cruiser’s port side.
The Queen barely shuddered as she ploughed ahead -- striking the cruiser as if she wasn’t there – and in a few minutes, she wasn’t.
Joe at TravelPage.com
This was the voyage on which the collision occurred that provided the most tragic incident in the ship's long career, About 9 0'clock on the morning of Friday October 2nd, H.M.S. Curacoa, a twin-screw anti-aircraft light cruiser of 4,290 tons displacement, 450 feet in length, assigned, with a six destroyer anti-submarine screen, to guard the Queen Mary, sighted her at a given position in aboutLongitude I2° W. She had come over from New York without escort until then, relying on her speed and a planned zigzag, known as "Zig-Zag 8", for her chief defence. The zig zag took about 40 minutes to complete, Steerlng to port and starboard, and her speed was taken as 28.5knots. Her mean course was 106°, and it was calculated the ship would advance on it 93 per cent of the totaldistance run, The Curacoa's best speed was 25knots, and so the Queen Mary, despite the zigzag, would ultimately over take her escort, At I2.20 Captain Boutwood of the Curacoa sent a hand signal to his convoy, Which was still well astern, "When you are ahead I will edge in astern of you", His duty, of course, was to guard thetransport against air attack, They were now in a zone where the danger was increasing, and although the sea was rough with a heavy westerly swell runnlng, the weather was fine and clear, With visibility extending for miles.
[ 10-31-2003: Message edited by: Ocean Liners ]
Interesting about the Plan G zig-zag tho'. With a 93% speed of advance over 40 minutes it shows the alterations from mean course would have been very small. With the speed and touchy stability each change would have taken several minutes and I really don't think they would have bothered in those circumstances which backs up what I said before.
Even the supposed msg about dropping in astern of the Mary makes sense from an anti-aircraft point of view as that would be the prime approach for any Nazi bomber. BUT it also indicated that the Mary was not zig-zagging and had adjusted her speed to that of the escort .....and that makes sense.
The Queen Mary left New York on 27 September 1942 with 10,398 troops on board,and five days later,at about 7am on 2 October,She sighted her escort cruiser the Curacoa and accompanying destroyers.
The Queen Mary was steaming at 28 knots on what was known as zig-zag No 8, Which took 40 minutes to complete and which meant that she steamed for four minutes on a mean(straight)course,then on a 25-degree course to starboard for eight minutes,a 50-degree course to port for eight minutes,and then back on to her mean course for further four minutes.
After this, the zigzag took her on these changes of course to port and starboard alternatively.As the Curacoa's best speed was 26 knots,she performed a modified zigzag which kept her as close as possible to the great liner, whilst maintaining the same mean course.
With her greater speed the Cunarder would Over take her escort,and by 2.15 pm the Queen Mary was on the starboard leg of her zigzag when the Curacoa converged on her from the starboad side and the Queen Mary collied with the Cruiser about 112 feet from the latter's stern,slicing straight through the warship.
[ 10-30-2003: Message edited by: Ocean Liners ]
By the way, speaking of stability...Queen Mary also was hit by a rouge wave during WWII which nearly rolled her over..within a couple of feet. So there almost was a "real" Poseiden Adventure.
quote:Originally posted by Barryboat:By the way, speaking of stability...Queen Mary also was hit by a rouge wave during WWII which nearly rolled her over..within a couple of feet. So there almost was a "real" Poseiden Adventure.
Barry,
Are you sure you aren't referring to the rogue wave that nearly capsized the Queen Elizabeth in 1946? As a former Cunard employee you are surely aware of how historical "facts" get twisted and distorted by the staff to make things sound more interesting. This sounds like one of the interesting "facts" dished out to QE2 passengers during "open house" in the Queen's Room at morning tea/coffee on the first full day at sea on each voyage....The Poseidon Adventure link is the tell-tale clue in this case.
Brian
Good stuff Ocean Liner. However let's just look at what was said.Zig-Zag 'G' gave a 93% rate of advance. In other words at 28 Kts she would go 26 miles on the base course. But if the escort cruiser was doing 26Kts and also zig-zagging she would be making less distance than that and thus falling behind at every revolution.
The accident occurred when she was approaching the Irish coast and only a few hours from the Clyde, her destination. That meant she was just about in her worst condition for stability and with a following Westerly swell any rudder changes would have to have been done very gently to avoid broaching at that speed.
So, once again, I don't think she was zig-zagging, and had actually slowed to the speed of her escort who was taking up position and made a misjudgement of the manoevre....peter
It was indeed the Queen Mary without a doubt. Remember, I'm a Queen Mary historian.
Oops! My mistake I just did a little research and found more than one report of the incident. I was half asleep and should have taken my nap BEFORE I posted rather than after.
On the other hand, my error did allow me to get in my shot about the bilge water masquerading as fact that is fed to QE2 passengers at "open house".
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