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» Cruise Talk   » Technically Speaking   » The Queens and stabilty

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Author Topic: The Queens and stabilty
gohaze
First Class Passenger
Member # 586

posted 10-11-2003 11:31 AM      Profile for gohaze   Email gohaze   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hi...a query has been made about the stability of the Queens, particularly during the war when carrying large numbers of troops.

You have to start with the stability designed into all the liners built for the Western Ocean and their inherent problems. They had high fuel consumption and most people don't realise that, unlike these days when it's made on board, they carried the fresh water they used - quite a tonnage.

So, at the beginning of the voyage, with FO & FW tanks full, they were stiff ships (lots of stability and a fast roll) but towards the end with MT tanks the stability was getting marginal with a slow roll. If it became critical then Fuel tanks could of course be ballasted to inprove things but this was discouraged as it meant getting rid of dirty ballast at the end of the voyage when you needed the time for loading bunkers.

With the 2 Queens and their extra tonnage high up they must have had to watch things very closely. Their running at high speed was of course their safety and that meant driving them even in bad weather which is why they didn't zig-zag. It took more time in the danger zone and used more fuel they didn't have.
An example of the pressures they sailed under is when the cruiser HMS Curacao cut across the bow and was sliced in two and sunk and they couldn't even slow down.

...peter


Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged
sslewis
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posted 10-13-2003 05:23 PM      Profile for sslewis   Author's Homepage   Email sslewis   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Peter,
did you mean the Queens could not zigzag during the war due to extra fuel and top heavyness?
In an article by Ships Monthly, and several other sources, it was stated that the Queen Mary did not stop after slicing Hms Curacao because she would have been too great a target.
But, as with many other war events after 60 years, the truth might be different..
ssLewis

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gohaze
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posted 10-13-2003 07:05 PM      Profile for gohaze   Email gohaze   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Vessels that could maintain a certain spoeed did not normally sail in convoy and those that could do higher speeds like the Queens did not zig-zag either. The saving in time and fuel was a bigger advantage.
There was just no way one of those ships could even slow down let alone stop especially in a high risk area like the Western Approaches.
...peter

Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged
Mike01
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posted 10-14-2003 11:38 AM      Profile for Mike01        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Typically convoy's zigzaged if they were slower than the surface speed of the German U-Boats or the Japanese I-Boats. Once the Germans perfected the wolf pack technique the best defense was to change course often enough so that they couldn't mass sufficient U-Boats in the oncoming path in time.

With the U-Boats limited to 20knots at flank speed on the surface one of the 30+knot ocean liners could fly past them long before they could get into position to take a shot. The only chance a submarine would have would be dumb luck that they are directly in the steaming path and they take a bow shot. Those odds are pretty slim in an ocean and to lurk on the surface was dangerous with allied air cover scowering the seas for targets.

Towards the end of the war many convoys stopped zigzaging once the escort "baby" flatops were available. If you have a 30 plane aircraft carrier with search aircraft abort it was almost certain death for a German submarine to make and approach and attack. The would run out of battery power long before the carriers aircraft were out of range.


Posts: 17 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
sslewis
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posted 10-15-2003 10:58 AM      Profile for sslewis   Author's Homepage   Email sslewis   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks FYI all.
I thought that the Queens did zigzag, hence the crash with hms Curacao.
Now, the rolling is described in Les Streater new Book RMS Queen Mary-The early years.
She used to be nicknamed "Mary roller"!
I am not sure, but people prefered her long slow roll to Normandie's more rapid and brutal motion.
Not sure which one is better really.
ssLewis

Posts: 2513 | From: Shipspotting Solent shores when weather allows.... | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
sslewis
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posted 10-28-2003 08:14 AM      Profile for sslewis   Author's Homepage   Email sslewis   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I found the book in which the operational secrets of rmsQueen Mary are exposed.
rmsQueen Mary-50 years of Splendour, by David Hutchings(Kingfisher Publications). He has been employed by Vosper Thornycroft of Southampton, who recently moved to my home town, Portsmouth, uk.
Fascinating read.
Yes, she rolled, and in a peculiar way at that.
She would start slowly, stop, then carry on well past 15 degrees. Then, roll all the opposite way, stop again, carry on, and so forth.
As David puts it, local glass,porcelainmakers and piano-makers made a small fortune before things were sorted in a major Normandie like refit in1937.
Much to my surprise, she also had severe vibrations!
It would be interesting to compare the pre/post refir memorabilia.
For instance, I gather the soup bowls were deeper, tables could be bolted, their edges risen ect..
Well, Peter, time to consult your local library..
Oh, and she was affectionately called "Mary Roller", or "Bloody Mary"in the worst cases!
ssLewis, enjoying this rare book of a gem

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gohaze
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Member # 586

posted 10-28-2003 05:05 PM      Profile for gohaze   Email gohaze   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Pitching & rolling are of course a function of the sea conditions, the relative course & speed, and how the ship is loaded and trimmed.
As I mentioned before all the Western Ocean liners used to go from being stiff when full of fuel & water at the beginning of the voyage (they had to be, because if they were tender then they'd never have made it to the end) to quite tender when the consumables had been used.

The sort of roll that you've descibed could have been caused by "Free Surface Effect" which is what you get when a tank is partly filled/empty. A FULL tank is the same as a solid block, but the liquid in a partly-filled tank is free to move and does when a ship rolls thus tending to add to the roll and thereby decreasing the stability.
If you have a lot of tanks, and the Queens did, then the FSE can become noticeable if they are not either full or empty. BTW...Brit engineers were notorious for slack tanks and always sailing with a list.
Because of the built in delay of the liquids starting to move when the ship rolls, you can have that hesitation as it catches up and pushes it further over.
Hope that helps....I'm inclined to think that 15 deg + is exagerating it a bit tho'.

The other things you describe were standard, nothing unusual. All tables were secured to the deck, the chairs had chains underneath to secure them to lugs in the deck, the wooden lips, called fiddles were standard on all tables and the tablecloths were wetted down too.

Vibration was a common problem with new ships and frequently due to the pitch on the propeller(s). Pitch, number of blades and design has always been more of a "black art" than a science. Look at I.K.Brunel's propeller on the Great Britain, some of today's experts with all their computers have trouble matching his HP/Spd. They had to rebuild the aft end on those new Celebrity ships because of it.

.....peter


Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged
Aussie1
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posted 10-28-2003 10:01 PM      Profile for Aussie1   Email Aussie1   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Queen Mary was zig zagging when she hit HMS Curacoa. Part of the reason for the collision was that to keep up with the zig zagging liner the slower cruiser was essentially sailing on a straight course while the liner turned around her. I think the cruiser was good for about 27 knots and QM crossed the Atlantic at about 29 knots. I only recently read about the collision in the Potter and Frost book "The Mary" where they go into great detail about the tragedy.
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gohaze
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Member # 586

posted 10-29-2003 11:40 AM      Profile for gohaze   Email gohaze   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sounds like an interesting book which unfortunately is not in our library.

I still doubt that the Mary was zig-zagging at the time. To zig-zag was an anti-submarine manoevre for slower ships to confuse submerged U-boats. Speed was the safety factor for fast ships, especially ones like the Queens. The shortest distance in the shortest time exposed, and taking into account the critical fuel/water consumption.

The reason for the Curacao being there was because she was acting as an anti-aircraft escort. The Curacao class of Light Cruisers had been re-fitted as Anti-aircraft vessels (speed 29kts) and the Mary was then within range of enemy bombers on approaching the coast.

It's an escorts job to keep clear of the 'escorted', especially when there is a large difference in sheer size and manoevrability which is only common sense.
Even if the Mary was changing course at the time, it would have been done slowly simply because of the stability problems which have been discussed above, and which would have been getting critical as the voyage ended.

Thus it would have been impossible for her to have "T-boned" the Curacao. What happened was that the cruiser for some reason was changing her escort position from one bow of the Mary to the other and the Captain totally misjudged the relative position/speed and suddenly found himself right under the bow of the oncoming ship with nowhere to go. He may even in fact gone hard over in a last second attempt to clear his stern.

Very sad, and probably caused by fatigue which was an occupational hazard of the times.

....peter


Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged
Aussie1
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Member # 25

posted 10-29-2003 04:38 PM      Profile for Aussie1   Email Aussie1   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Peter, I'll have a read again tonight to confirm the zig zag comment. Actually have a few books at home which talk about this so will be able to find the definative answer.
Posts: 493 | From: Sydney,NSW, Australia | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged
Aussie1
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posted 10-29-2003 04:46 PM      Profile for Aussie1   Email Aussie1   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Found this on the net, summarises what is in the Potter & Frost book, QM was zig zagging, Steve

"When it was approaching the Clyde the Queen Mary required an anti-aircraft escort, amongst these was the cruiser HMS Curacoa. On 2 October the escort ships were sighted. The Queen Mary was steaming at 28 knots in zig-zag pattern whilst the Curacoa, whose best speed was 26 knots, kept as close as possible. The Queen Mary overtook its escort and then the zig-zag pattern of the two ships converged and it collided with the Curacoa close to its stern and sliced straight through the ship. Out of 430 crew members on the cruiser only 101 survived. Although there was damage beneath the waterline the Queen Mary was able to continue. With over 11,000 troops on board the Queen Mary could not stop to assist and it sailed straight to the Clyde. A long legal battle between the Admiralty and Cunard eventually laid the blame equally on both vessels."


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joe at travelpage
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posted 10-29-2003 06:21 PM      Profile for joe at travelpage   Author's Homepage   Email joe at travelpage   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My understanding is that it was the Curacoa that was zig-zagging. As Peter pointed out the Queen Mary did not need to because of her speed.

Here's an eyewitness account:

quote:
The Royal Navy anti-aircraft cruiser Curacoa came out to meet the Queen Mary to form part of her escort through the Irish Sea. They rendezvoused northwest of the aptly-named Bloody Foreland of Donegal.

Vince remembered seeing the cruiser approach very rapidly as he watched from the railings. A small ship of under 5,000 tons, the World War I-era light cruiser seemed not much bigger than the American destroyers that often shepherded the convoy across the cold North Atlantic.

Warning claxons broke Vince’s reverie: submarines had been sighted near the convoy. The Curacoa immediately went into a rapid zig-zag pattern. To Vince’s horror the cruiser cut in front of the Queen Mary.

There was no collision, not in the usual, awful sense of the word. The huge liner, sixteen times the displacement of the cruiser, cleanly cut the Curacoa in half amidships. The liner sped right through the brilliant camouflage of the cruiser’s port side.

The Queen barely shuddered as she ploughed ahead -- striking the cruiser as if she wasn’t there – and in a few minutes, she wasn’t.


Joe at TravelPage.com


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Ocean Liners
First Class Passenger
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posted 10-29-2003 06:46 PM      Profile for Ocean Liners     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I read an article below about ZiG ZAG No.8: The Queen Mary's chief defence against submarines in The Cunard White Star Quardrupe-Screw Liner QUENN MARY published by Bonanza Books.

This was the voyage on which the collision occurred that provided the most tragic incident in the ship's long career, About 9 0'clock on the morning of Friday October 2nd, H.M.S. Curacoa, a twin-screw anti-aircraft light cruiser of 4,290 tons displacement, 450 feet in length, assigned, with a six destroyer anti-submarine screen, to guard the Queen Mary, sighted her at a given position in about
Longitude I2° W. She had come over from New York without escort until then, relying on her speed and a planned zigzag, known as "Zig-Zag 8", for her chief defence. The zig zag took about 40 minutes to complete, Steerlng to port and starboard, and her speed was taken as 28.5knots. Her mean course was 106°, and it was calculated the ship would advance on it 93 per cent of the total
distance run, The Curacoa's best speed was 25knots, and so the Queen Mary, despite the zigzag, would ultimately over take her escort, At I2.20 Captain Boutwood of the Curacoa sent a hand signal to his convoy, Which was still well astern, "When you are ahead I will edge in astern of you", His duty, of course, was to guard the
transport against air attack, They were now in a zone where the danger was increasing, and although the sea was rough with a heavy westerly swell runnlng, the weather was fine and clear, With visibility extending for miles.

[ 10-31-2003: Message edited by: Ocean Liners ]


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sslewis
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posted 10-30-2003 12:39 PM      Profile for sslewis   Author's Homepage   Email sslewis   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I wonder how much roll she achieved?
That swell, the light fuel tanks at the end of the voyage, all these troops, she must have been very tender, and zigzaging must have increased her lendendary roll!
ssLewis, puzzled

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gohaze
First Class Passenger
Member # 586

posted 10-30-2003 07:54 PM      Profile for gohaze   Email gohaze   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Zig-zagging was only done away from the coastal waters and evidently the accident occurred about 100 miles off the Irish Coast shortly after she picked up her escort.

Interesting about the Plan G zig-zag tho'. With a 93% speed of advance over 40 minutes it shows the alterations from mean course would have been very small. With the speed and touchy stability each change would have taken several minutes and I really don't think they would have bothered in those circumstances which backs up what I said before.

Even the supposed msg about dropping in astern of the Mary makes sense from an anti-aircraft point of view as that would be the prime approach for any Nazi bomber. BUT it also indicated that the Mary was not zig-zagging and had adjusted her speed to that of the escort .....and that makes sense.

....peter


Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged
Ocean Liners
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posted 10-30-2003 08:25 PM      Profile for Ocean Liners     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here is an another article from The Atlantic Liners of the Cunard Line

The Queen Mary left New York on 27 September 1942 with 10,398 troops on board,and five days later,at about 7am on 2 October,She sighted her escort cruiser the Curacoa and accompanying destroyers.

The Queen Mary was steaming at 28 knots on what was known as zig-zag No 8, Which took 40 minutes to complete and which meant that she steamed for four minutes on a mean(straight)course,then on a 25-degree course to starboard for eight minutes,a 50-degree course to port for eight minutes,and then back on to her mean course for further four minutes.

After this, the zigzag took her on these changes of course to port and starboard alternatively.As the Curacoa's best speed was 26 knots,she performed a modified zigzag which kept her as close as possible to the great liner, whilst maintaining the same mean course.

With her greater speed the Cunarder would Over take her escort,and by 2.15 pm the Queen Mary was on the starboard leg of her zigzag when the Curacoa converged on her from the starboad side and the Queen Mary collied with the Cruiser about 112 feet from the latter's stern,slicing straight through the warship.

[ 10-30-2003: Message edited by: Ocean Liners ]


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Barryboat
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posted 10-31-2003 11:09 AM      Profile for Barryboat   Author's Homepage   Email Barryboat   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I actually met a survivor of the Curacao incident. I met this man in Southampton, while waiting for my first QE2 crossing. I was in a bookstore reading a book about Queen Mary, and this guy peeked over my shoulder and said I know that ship! He said he was in the crows nest of the Curacao when the Queen Mary sliced through his boat. He gave me is name and address, but unfortunately I lost it. He wrote his name and address on a little piece of paper that must have fell out of my paperwork. I was so upset. He was very hesitant to speak about the incident.

By the way, speaking of stability...Queen Mary also was hit by a rouge wave during WWII which nearly rolled her over..within a couple of feet. So there almost was a "real" Poseiden Adventure.


Posts: 1851 | From: Bloomington, Minnesota (Home to the Mall of America) | Registered: Mar 99  |  IP: Logged
Brian_O
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posted 10-31-2003 02:46 PM      Profile for Brian_O     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Barryboat:

By the way, speaking of stability...Queen Mary also was hit by a rouge wave during WWII which nearly rolled her over..within a couple of feet. So there almost was a "real" Poseiden Adventure.

Barry,

Are you sure you aren't referring to the rogue wave that nearly capsized the Queen Elizabeth in 1946? As a former Cunard employee you are surely aware of how historical "facts" get twisted and distorted by the staff to make things sound more interesting. This sounds like one of the interesting "facts" dished out to QE2 passengers during "open house" in the Queen's Room at morning tea/coffee on the first full day at sea on each voyage....The Poseidon Adventure link is the tell-tale clue in this case.

Brian


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gohaze
First Class Passenger
Member # 586

posted 10-31-2003 04:34 PM      Profile for gohaze   Email gohaze   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow...can you imagine having to just stand there and look at that huge onrushing monster of a bow coming straight at you.

Good stuff Ocean Liner. However let's just look at what was said.
Zig-Zag 'G' gave a 93% rate of advance. In other words at 28 Kts she would go 26 miles on the base course. But if the escort cruiser was doing 26Kts and also zig-zagging she would be making less distance than that and thus falling behind at every revolution.

The accident occurred when she was approaching the Irish coast and only a few hours from the Clyde, her destination. That meant she was just about in her worst condition for stability and with a following Westerly swell any rudder changes would have to have been done very gently to avoid broaching at that speed.

So, once again, I don't think she was zig-zagging, and had actually slowed to the speed of her escort who was taking up position and made a misjudgement of the manoevre.
...peter


Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged
Barryboat
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Member # 33

posted 10-31-2003 06:44 PM      Profile for Barryboat   Author's Homepage   Email Barryboat   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Brian 0,

It was indeed the Queen Mary without a doubt. Remember, I'm a Queen Mary historian.


Posts: 1851 | From: Bloomington, Minnesota (Home to the Mall of America) | Registered: Mar 99  |  IP: Logged
Brian_O
First Class Passenger
Member # 3910

posted 10-31-2003 07:05 PM      Profile for Brian_O     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Barry,

Oops! My mistake I just did a little research and found more than one report of the incident. I was half asleep and should have taken my nap BEFORE I posted rather than after.

On the other hand, my error did allow me to get in my shot about the bilge water masquerading as fact that is fed to QE2 passengers at "open house".

Brian


Posts: 2698 | From: Pointe-Claire, QC Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Barryboat
First Class Passenger
Member # 33

posted 10-31-2003 09:36 PM      Profile for Barryboat   Author's Homepage   Email Barryboat   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's an artist rendition of the rouge wave hitting Queen Mary:


Posts: 1851 | From: Bloomington, Minnesota (Home to the Mall of America) | Registered: Mar 99  |  IP: Logged
sslewis
First Class Passenger
Member # 3649

posted 11-03-2003 09:17 AM      Profile for sslewis   Author's Homepage   Email sslewis   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hello.
Is it rouge wave(rouge is red in French)or is it rogue wave?
Nevertheless, love the rendition of QM1.
On another board, someone knows all about the Poseidon.
QE1 was also hit by a big wave (in January44?)which broke several portholes and saw her fordeck drop by several inches in places. But damage was not as bad as in Michelangelo, and there were only troops onboard, no passengers.
It seems passenger-carrying vessels incidents are better documented, perhaps because of the liabilities?
It would be nice to hear from a trooper.
I actually met one in Poole, Dorset, UK. He told me that he got a job onboard, and hated the Queens as they rolled badly, compared to Pasteur or Ile de France. Both vessels were managed by Cunard during the war.
ssLewis

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Barryboat
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posted 11-03-2003 09:21 AM      Profile for Barryboat   Author's Homepage   Email Barryboat   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Rogue wave...sorry
Posts: 1851 | From: Bloomington, Minnesota (Home to the Mall of America) | Registered: Mar 99  |  IP: Logged
sslewis
First Class Passenger
Member # 3649

posted 11-04-2003 08:09 AM      Profile for sslewis   Author's Homepage   Email sslewis   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks, Barryboat.
I am certain QE1 fared better than QM1 as she was vastly improved, and heavier, wider ect.
But some believe QE1 flush deck allowed more damage than QM1. Michelangelo proved it!
How is QE2 in bad weather?
Was the Observation Lounge removed only to extend the galley forward?
ssLewis

Posts: 2513 | From: Shipspotting Solent shores when weather allows.... | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged

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Description: What a charming little chain of islands. Walk on pink sand beaches. Swim and snorkel in turquoise seas. Take in the historical sights. They're stoically British and very quaint. Or explore the coral reefs. You can get to them by boat or propelled by fins. You pick. Freestyle Cruising doesn't tell you where to go or what to do. Sure, you can plan ahead, or decide once onboard. After all, it's your vacation. There are no deadlines or must do's.
Holland America - Eastern Caribbean from From $599 per person
Description: White sand, black sand, talcum soft or shell strewn, the beaches of the Eastern Caribbean invite you to swim, snorkel or simply relax. For shoppers, there's duty-free St. Thomas, the Straw Market in Nassau, French perfume and Dutch chocolates on St. Maarten. For history buffs, the fascinating fusion of Caribbean, Latin and European cultures. For everyone, a day spent on HAL's award winning private island Half Moon Cay.
Celebrity - 7-Night Western Mediterranean from $549 per person
Description: For centuries people have traveled to Europe to see magnificent ruins, art treasures and natural wonders. And the best way to do so is by cruise ship. Think of it - you pack and unpack only once. No wasted time searching for hotels and negotiating train stations. Instead, you arrive at romantic ports of call relaxed, refreshed and ready to take on the world.
Holland America - Alaska from From $499 per person
Description: Sail between Vancouver and Seward, departing Sundays on the ms Statendam or ms Volendam and enjoy towering mountains, actively calving glaciers and pristine wildlife habitat. Glacier Bay and College Fjord offer two completely different glacier-viewing experiences.

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