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Originally posted by Frosty 4:
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I thought Jewel OTS was the best looking ship we sailed on .Not sure what class and who built it?
F4

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That would be a 'Radiance class' ship built at Meyer Werft.

Mind you, as a passenger it is close to impossible to make any conclusions about the 'ship builder'. Many suppliers and companies are involved in the building and in the design process - and many of those companies work not only for one but for several cruise lines and/or ship yards. There are of course features typical for a certain builder but at the end of the day the shipyards is building what the customer wants.

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Originally posted by Fairsky:
There is also a difference between how a ship looks and the quality of the construction. I would argue that the ships coming out of Meyer Weft look the best...the sleekest designs. [...]

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Actually, the exterior appearance is very likely the least characteristic feature related to the ship builder. Yes, the yard is of course involved in the design process but the design that defines the exterior (and also the interior) appearance is usually not done by the shipyard (at least not by the shipyard alone). There are many design or architecture bureaus who work for different cruise lines and different yards, some cruise lines have their own 'design' departments whereas some might indeed let the yard do more work.

A shipyard is 'simply' the 'place' where the ship is assembled. It's the logistics and how certain things are done which distinguishes the different shipyards - and even these characteristics (e.g. supplies preferred by the yard or affiliated to the yard) can be 'overruled' by the customer. How all that comes together is not necessarily 'directly visible' in the product the public gets to see in the end (e.g. it's not clear whether baldy installed fittings were put there by workers form the yard or by workers form a contractor).

[ 12-21-2010: Message edited by: Ernst ]

This may not be the fault of the 'builder', it may be just a 'design specification'.

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Originally posted by lasuvidaboy:
I would guess that a shipbuilder is similar to a building contractor who must work in conjunction with the designer and the ship owner's budget.

As seen w/the Disney ships, the designers and owner expect perfection when it comes to the interior AND exterior of their ships. As with constructing a beautifully finished building-that always costs more $$$.

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This is true, but I still think the actual shipyard plays an important role. Some yards are simply more technologically advanced, have higher standards, are better organized, and employ a more highly trained workforce. Even the happiness of the workforce can make a difference in the quality of work. How the employees are treated, etc. Let us not forget the history of delivering orders on time (or even early) also plays a role (some shipyards are prone to strikes).

I have always heard great things about Meyer Werft, and rarely anything negative. Perhaps it makes a difference it's a family run business? Their customers seem very pleased with the work, and overall I think the shipyard has probably the best reputation when it comes to passenger newbuilds.

I recall how pleased Princess and Carnival Corp. were with the delivery of DIAMOND and SAPPHIRE PRINCESS from Mitsubishi Heavy Industries. They went as far to say they could not believe the finished state the ships were handed over in, even fully cleaned. They had never seen this from a European shipyard before. Unfortunately it didn't gain Mitsubishi additional orders.

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Originally posted by lasuvidaboy:
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As seen w/the Disney ships, the designers and owner expect perfection when it comes to the interior AND exterior of their ships. As with constructing a beautifully finished building-that always costs more $$$.

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Of course several years have now passed, and DCL is an established line with experience in operating two ships. I'm thinking their partnership with Meyer Werft has probably benefited a great deal from this experience. Unfortunately Fincantieri was dealing start up cruise line at the time, so things were much different and I'm sure much more difficult.

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Originally posted by Carlos Fernandez:
I think Frosty's question is about craftsmanship and the final quality of the ship itself as how it has been put together. Parts come from hundreds or thousand different suppliers and many things are installed by the suppliers themselves. In that case from the little I have seen they would all be almost equal and when compared to land based building construction cruise ship and ship construction overall is worlds ahead.

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You would think, but there are differences. Take NORWEGIAN EPIC for example. Anyone that pays attention to detail can see that some of the craftsmanship is a bit spotty. Joints that are not fitted properly, flooring that was coming up, some laminates already peeling off, etc. Some of this may be attributed to turn key suppliers, but some of it can probably be blamed on the shipyard itself. Of course NCL managers had to sign off on everything in order to take delivery, so they are accountable as well. Of course with EPIC I think NCL took delivery of an unfinished ship because they had little choice. Had the ship stayed at the shipyard any longer there may have been bigger issues than ill fitting joints.

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Originally posted by eroller:

You would think, but there are differences. Take NORWEGIAN EPIC for example. Anyone that pays attention to detail can see that some of the craftsmanship is a bit spotty. Joints that are not fitted properly, flooring that was coming up, some laminates already peeling off, etc.

Ernie

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I think the Norwegian Epic is a metaphor for the latest mismanagement of NCL under the Colin Veitch regime. She was a problem child from the start and would guess that they would have loved to start all over during the CAD stage.

Liners: The craftsmanship on many of the old British built liners such as Queen Mary 1, Regal Empress, Topaz, Canberra, the Dutch RotterdamV, Italian Stella Oceanis, and what was left of Le France was quite spectacular. I have been on all of them, and building around the banana shaped hull was quite of feat of craftsmanship that is all but lost. The woods, brass, and other great materials are now hard to come by and use.

Queen Mary 1

Topaz

Regal Empress

[ 12-21-2010: Message edited by: desirod7 ]

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Originally posted by Frosty 4:
I have never seen a post on this subject,but what yard do you consider builds the best ships?
I thought Jewel OTS was the best looking ship we sailed on .Not sure what class and who built it?
F4

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Thats an interesing question,but a nearly impossible question to answer if one is unfamiliar with the shipbuilding industry. Those of us who are not, can only speculate based on our favorites(line,ship,etc), but can never truly know the answer.

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Originally posted by eroller:

You would think, but there are differences. Take NORWEGIAN EPIC for example. Anyone that pays attention to detail can see that some of the craftsmanship is a bit spotty. Joints that are not fitted properly, flooring that was coming up, some laminates already peeling off, etc. Some of this may be attributed to turn key suppliers, but some of it can probably be blamed on the shipyard itself. Of course NCL managers had to sign off on everything in order to take delivery, so they are accountable as well. Of course with EPIC I think NCL took delivery of an unfinished ship because they had little choice. Had the ship stayed at the shipyard any longer there may have been bigger issues than ill fitting joints.

Ernie

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Originally posted by eroller:

This is true, but I still think the actual shipyard plays an important role. Some yards are simply more technologically advanced, have higher standards, are better organized, and employ a more highly trained workforce. Even the happiness of the workforce can make a difference in the quality of work. How the employees are treated, etc. Let us not forget the history of delivering orders on time (or even early) also plays a role (some shipyards are prone to strikes).

Ernie

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Originally posted by lasuvidaboy:

True. I've just finished reading Clive Harvey's excellent book on RMS Queen Elizabeth and the mess the John Brown shipyard made of her during the 1965-66 refit. The workers were'nt happy during the twilight of that yard. It's amazing Cunard went to them (price and delivery date) to build QE2.

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I would be spat upon if said on LinersList, but the QE2 was a very compromised ship starting with the design brief. It took many refits in an attempt to get right and often, the solution to one problem would cause others. Cunard refused delivery in 1968 since there was so much unfinished and poor work.

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Originally posted by desirod7:

20-20 hindsight: if Cunard refitted Liz in 1962 as a half time cruiser with all cabins with private facilities, aft pool, as they did in '65 she would have had a better twilight.

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True. Even w/out those modern conveniences, QE was apparently still a very popular cruise ship before the big 1965-66 refit.

As for that refit, I had never seen images of her 1st and cabin class cabins after the refit and I was surprised. Apparently many had their gorgeous woodwork painted out in light ('cool') colors and partially covered w/wallpaper. The beautiful wood furniture was also painted and all the fabrics replaced w/bright patterns to complete the cruising transformation. Cunard also heavily advertised the new open-air swimming pool and spacious lido (an apparent dig at ss France's glass-covered pool) even for her Transat crossings.

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Originally posted by eroller:

You would think, but there are differences. Take NORWEGIAN EPIC for example. Anyone that pays attention to detail can see that some of the craftsmanship is a bit spotty. Joints that are not fitted properly, flooring that was coming up, some laminates already peeling off, etc. Some of this may be attributed to turn key suppliers, but some of it can probably be blamed on the shipyard itself. Of course NCL managers had to sign off on everything in order to take delivery, so they are accountable as well. Of course with EPIC I think NCL took delivery of an unfinished ship because they had little choice. Had the ship stayed at the shipyard any longer there may have been bigger issues than ill fitting joints.

Ernie

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"The Epic came out in the worst condition as any new build has ever left the ship yard."

This is according to one of the engineers on the ship from a company who has been on many new builds doing the finishing touches. Beat me with a stick I just don't remember the company name. Something with M.

I had a great talk with some of the employees of said firm. You've been on the Epic. You probably remember the two elevators where the outdoor cafe is. The seals were already leaking and they had to remove all the seals and redo them.

They pulled of TV screens in public areas and rewired a lot of areas.

My question was of course why did NCL take delivery? In a discussion with outside sources including this particular company the suggestion was made to take the ship no matter what condition. Any day longer in that French ship yard would have made everything worse. They said that the ship was poorly put together.

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Originally posted by FL_Cruiser64:

"The Epic came out in the worst condition as any new build has ever left the ship yard."

This is according to one of the engineers on the ship from a company who has been on many new builds doing the finishing touches. Beat me with a stick I just don't remember the company name. Something with M.

I had a great talk with some of the employees of said firm. You've been on the Epic. You probably remember the two elevators where the outdoor cafe is. The seals were already leaking and they had to remove all the seals and redo them.

They pulled of TV screens in public areas and rewired a lot of areas.

My question was of course why did NCL take delivery? In a discussion with outside sources including this particular company the suggestion was made to take the ship no matter what condition. Any day longer in that French ship yard would have made everything worse. They said that the ship was poorly put together.

One guy even said that STX France shouldn't even build canoos. It is ironic that STX in Finland has such great reputation and the shipyard in France a really bad one.

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Originally posted by Magic Pipe:

Keep in mind that the finishing work on ships is performed exclusively by subcontractors. It is also completely unrealistic to expect a ship or any construction project of similar complexity to emerge flawless.

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Subcontractors or not, the responsibility falls back on the shipyard. After all, they are ultimately responsible for the construction of the ship and they hire the subcontractors. I would assume the subcontractors should be held to the same standards as the actual employees of the shipyard, and surely there is a screening process for all sub-contractors. In the end, if there is sub-standard construction work it's the shipyard that will take the heat and have their reputation at stake, not a subcontractor.

I don't think any cruise company expects a newbuild to be delivered at a 100% finished state. There is always a punch list and minor detail work to finish up, but generally it should be fairly minor. This was not the case with EPIC. The unfinished state of the ship at delivery would be unacceptable under normal circumstances, and I doubt any company would have accepted delivery. Unfortunately NCL didn't have much choice as the alternative could have been much worse. They have noted their displeasure with their wallet, as their next newbuilds will not be built by STX France.

Frankly I don't see many cruise companies rushing to build ships at STX France. MSC is their primary customer. Most lines that have built ships there have not returned. That should tell you something about their reputation. It's amazing QM2 came off as good as she did.