Mickey Arison: Don't take too many risks and never do anything you can't afford, and always keep the fun rolling.

Richard Fain: Take risks do everything you cant afford always go bigger even during bad economic times.

Mr. Arison in particular does control a large number of CCL shares, however. The percentage of RCL shares controlled by Mr. Fain is much smaller. The Arisons did once own all of CCL (before it went public) but Mr. Fain has certainly never been the "owner" of RCL; in fact he started out as an employee of one of the then-major shareholders.

Most large public companies don't have any individual or family that could be considered the "owner".

More lines, more ships - catering to a wider variety of cruisers.. and wallets.

Better worldwide infrastructure.

And the first to be refunding fuel supplements - unless something really whacky happens! (I have two cruises booked - PCL and Cunard - that's $153pp tied up in fuel supplements in the next 45 days.

Seriously, Arison has always been quite shrewd - whereby Fain is more ego driven.

quote:

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Originally posted by nycruiser:
I am not a business pro but when I was getting my B.A. degree in business one the best characteristics of a good leader is a risk taker. While both have taken risks I beleive my hat goes off to Mr. Fain if it was not for him and Royal Caribbean's team that rolled out the Voyager class, we would not have seen cruise ships become what they have today.

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Well said! We have had this discussion a thousand times, and we all know Carnival is more successful ... but ... I'll take RCCL any day! More creative thinking and definitely risk takers. I always love the underdog, and in this case teh underdog is easy to love.

By no means does the most successful mean the best. Look at Microsoft vs. Apple. Walmart vs. Target. McDonald's vs. Wendy's. etc. etc. I consider Apple, Target, and Wendy's to be the more innovative, creative, and quality driven companies. They are not the most successful in their fields by any means, yet I prefer to give my business to those companies because I know I'm getting something more in return.

The same holds true for RCCL vs. Carnival. It's a no brainer which company is more successful. It's not something worth debating. None the less, I'll take Royal Caribbean over Carnival any day of the week. More creative thinking, risk takers, and an amazing product.

As for Fain, yes I've heard he has an ego. So what. All men in his position have some sort of ego to contend with. He is also a man that thinks outside the box, is willing to take risks, and doesn't take one up the rear every time Wall Street blinks. He is also meticulous when it comes to his ships, and is very hands-on. It's one reason there is so much attention to detail in the design of Royal Caribbean and Celebrity ships.

The industry, we ship lovers, and consumers should be thankful we have something besides Carnival to pick from. As I've said before, this industry would be VERY boring without RCCL.

Certainly I think that the next two years will be a testing time for all the lines. We'll know which ones have got it right in about two years' time..... But I have a feeling that Carnival Cruise Line will win the battle over Royal Caribbean, because the former will probably be able to offer lower rates (I'm thinking about the bread-and-butter 3, 4 and 7-night Caribbean cruise market). I also think that Celebrity will win the 'Premium' line competition, and will do better than Princess or HAL.

[ 11-24-2008: Message edited by: Tom Burke ]

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Originally posted by mike sa:
In fact Carnival Cruise Lines itself was pretty much innovative when launched.
Marketing - without doubt innovative.

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In this very interesting debate, I think mention must be made of Bob Dickinson, Carnival's marketing guru, without whom, I suspect, Carnival would not be where they are today.

He always said his main competition was not other cruise lines but the resorts in Las Vegas.

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Originally posted by Tom Burke:
One issue is that times are changing. Up until now all ships have sailed pretty much full, but 2009 & 2010 may be very tight years for the cruise industry. If occupancy rates drop significantly, it will be interesting to see if they drop equally across all lines, or if one line can maintain higher rates. On the one hand, one might expect that Carnival, with its cash mountain and lower borrowings, might be able to offer the absolute lowest prices and thus attract more passengers. On the other hand, passengers might prefer to go with more innovation, in which case one might expect RCCL to do better, even at possibly higher cost. Looking at more up-market lines, I have a feeling that Celebrity have got their timing right with the Solstice class - Princess and HAL (the most likely lines to be operating in the same market as Celebrity, and both CCL subsidiaries) don't have anything to compare with those ships, and can't have for some years.

Certainly I think that the next two years will be a testing time for all the lines. We'll know which ones have got it right in about two years' time..... But I have a feeling that Carnival Cruise Line will win the battle over Royal Caribbean, because the former will probably be able to offer lower rates (I'm thinking about the bread-and-butter 3, 4 and 7-night Caribbean cruise market). I also think that Celebrity will win the 'Premium' line competition, and will do better than Princess or HAL.

[ 11-24-2008: Message edited by: Tom Burke ]

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Don't agree with you here. In terms of success HAL beats celebrity on passenger repeat base. No other cruise line in the industry, have such high repeaters then HAL. Other point you cannot really comparing Celebrity with HAL, Princess I will place in direct competition with RCI. Although HAL/Celebrity are in the same Premium market both aiming on a whole noter passenger group within the premium market. In that there is room fore both time will say who do better under the today recession.

quote:

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Originally posted by Maasdam:

Don't agree with you here. In terms of success HAL beats celebrity on passenger repeat base.

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That repeat base is dying off quickly! Younger passengers (60 and below) still have issues with HAL. Too old fashioned although I will say HAL did the right thing with EURODAM. The thing is, many parts of the ship look more like Celebrity than HAL. What does that tell you?

quote:

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Originally posted by Maasdam:
Interesting discussion. Once again I see that Line preference is the issue here. I believe when you invest in a company you look at how the company perform and how the company is run. I'm not invest in a company who is willing to risk my money with mega projects. The risk of loosing everything is to high. I bet on the more stable conservative player. So CCL is the more safe investment after all I want to earn money in relative safety (as far investments are safe)

Greetings Ben.

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If you really want to invest wisely, I would avoid almost any travel related stock. Airlines, hotels, cruise lines, etc. There are better (safer) investments where you will receive a greater return.

On the other hand, if you believe in a company that takes risks such as RCCL, then now is a great time to invest. Of course it's a risk, but with any good risk is a chance you will come out way ahead in the end.

Most really successful companies (and people) didn't get where they are by always playing it safe. At some point they were risk takers and it paid off.

I should add that Carnival got where it is today by taking risks. Ted Arison was a great man and without question a risk taker. Some of his ideas were met with great skepticism. He persevered and Carnival is where it is thanks to him. Now Carnival plays it safe for the stockholders. It's Wall Street that calls the shots, and Carnival must answer to them over anyone else. Taking risks is no longer acceptable as it might dilute the shareholder returns. Sad really, but that is life at a publicly listed company.

Ernie

[ 11-24-2008: Message edited by: eroller ]

quote:

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Originally posted by eroller:

That repeat base is dying off quickly! Younger passengers (60 and below) still have issues with HAL. Too old fashioned although I will say HAL did the right thing with EURODAM. The thing is, many parts of the ship look more like Celebrity than HAL. What does that tell you?

Ernie

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Well better daying after a HAL cruise thene laying in state in one of the freezer look a like lounges of Celebrity. No just jocking about. Well thene both lines have there place in the industry. First you cool down with Celebrity then warm up with HAL

quote:

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Originally posted by eroller:

If you really want to invest wisely, I would avoid almost any travel related stock. Airlines, hotels, cruise lines, etc. There are better (safer) investments where you will receive a greater return.

On the other hand, if you believe in a company that takes risks such as RCCL, then now is a great time to invest. Of course it's a risk, but with any good risk is a chance you will come out way ahead in the end.

Most really successful companies (and people) didn't get where they are by always playing it safe. At some point they were risk takers and it paid off.

I should add that Carnival got where it is today by taking risks. Ted Arison was a great man and without question a risk taker. Some of his ideas were met with great skepticism. He persevered and Carnival is where it is thanks to him. Now Carnival plays it safe for the stockholders. It's Wall Street that calls the shots, and Carnival must answer to them over anyone else. Taking risks is no longer acceptable as it might dilute the shareholder returns. Sad really, but that is life at a publicly listed company.

Ernie

[ 11-24-2008: Message edited by: eroller ]

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Agree completely with you.

quote:

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Originally posted by eroller:

That repeat base is dying off quickly! Younger passengers (60 and below) still have issues with HAL. Too old fashioned although I will say HAL did the right thing with EURODAM. The thing is, many parts of the ship look more like Celebrity than HAL. What does that tell you?

Ernie

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quote:

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Originally posted by lasuvidaboy:
70 million strong Baby Boomers. The BBs will begin to retire in the next few years and will have more money than any other US generation has had and possibly will ever have again.

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Only if Obama and his Clinton alumni clean up the Bush financial mess soon. The market, even after today's gains is almost 1/2 of its record in October 2007.

Many boomers who knew no Great Depression invested more in stocks/commodities than their parents did.

I believe after this Fall's meltdown many will have to postpone retirement.

[ 11-24-2008: Message edited by: desirod7 ]

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Originally posted by Tim Agg:
Why on earth do we keep sailing with them?

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Tim,
They must be doing something right! You certainly don't fit the typical HAL demographic.

quote:

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Originally posted by Tim Agg:
I just can't figure out why HAL has kept us in its clutches for so long: we are not old; we are not wealthy; we don't hold country club memberships; we don't vote Republican (here, it's Conservative); we're not even straight; and we've been hearing about its pending demise for failure to be contemporary since we first sailed with them in 1994. Why on earth do we keep sailing with them?

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They're sneaky like that...

Over the years they have provided very consistent and comfortable product that many have grown to appreciate and enjoy. As you know, this becomes more apparent the more you sail on their ships.

If someone is looking for rock climbing walls, space age dining rooms or Studio 54 nightlife, then HAL is definitely not for them.

If someone is looking for a relaxing experience where everyone is treated to a quality product and personal service then HAL is a good choice.

Some people just don't get it and that's why they choose other lines. In the meantime, plenty of otehr folks seem to like what HAL has to offer. They've been doing this for a long time so they must be doing something right.