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The 'ideal' ship for cruises to the Antarctic...
...should be in pristine condition...
...it should have a perfect safety record and the most modern safety equipment (a 'normal' incident in this area is more of a problem than somewhere else)...
...it should have a very, very well trained crew....
....it must not be too large for many reasons - certainly not more than 200 passengers....
...it should have a double hull that is ice strengthened (highest ice class)....
..the important machinery of the ship should be redundant...(e.g. more than one propeller)
...it should be a 'two compartment ship' (unlike Explorer that recently went down)....
...there should be proper life saving equipment like survivial suits for every person aboard (I know, this is a hassle, but that's how it should be) and certainly not open (!!!!) life boats ....
...all waste (incl. water) must be kept aboard....
...it should not operate on heavy oil.....
....another ship capable of taking all persons aboard should be nearby (not more than some hours away) at ANY time ......
..etc. etc. ...
I am sure I forgot many issues that have to be addressed.
Of course, this should be considered not only when going to Antarctica but also other sensitive or remote areas. I guess it is not too difficult to figure out why it is DISGUSTING to see ships like Discovery operating in this region.
Go here, and read the Feb 18th entry.
http://www.saga.co.uk/travel/cruises3/CaptainsBlog_Main.asp?month=2&year=2008&this_ship=Ruby
[ 03-01-2008: Message edited by: Cambodge ]
Tony
quote:Wel I planned on sailing the Marco Polo it has left these waters.
While "Marco Polo" is leaving Orient Lines, she will continue to operate in Antarctica under her new operators, Transocean Tours.
Best,
Raoul
Also, not all small 'expedition cruise ships' are 'perfect' either (just because people say things like "they were built for that") - one has to look closely.
Pam
[ 03-02-2008: Message edited by: PamM ]
Some friends of mine, who live in Australia and are members of the World Ship Society, have cruised on mv ' Discovery', to the Antartic, just before Christmas.
There was only 350 passengers on board and they had a great time with food and service being excellent.
They had cruised on her when she was the ' Island Princess ' and said that she is maintained in immaculate condition.
Passengers are taken ashore in zodiacs with no problems and able to walk on the beach amongst the seals and penquins.
They are returning for another cruise next year and said they had enjoyed the trip better than one made on Saga Rose, two years ago, while on holiday in the UK.
Neil ( Bob )
As for Ernst's "ideal" ship, as far as I know it does not exist. (For example, being shadowed by another ship all the time is quite rare.) The safest thing is, after all, simply to not go! Anything beyond that is a compromise and just what is an acceptable compromise is up for debate.
[ 03-02-2008: Message edited by: dougnewman ]
quote:Originally posted by PamM:So, what is 'suitable' then? One could easily say none, but there has to be a compromise. [...]
Sadly most ships going to this region are far from even coming close to be adequate for such journeys. e.g. Discovery and the Saga sisters have open (!!!!!) life boats. This is careless. Period.Personally, I do not see much room for compromise when it comes to safety. Sadly we do not talk about details here but major flaws. Personally I prefer to stay here with the opinion of experts and not some passengers - even if they did several trips on these ships (which actually proves that they are entirely clueless) and even if they are members of the 'World Ship Society'.
mv Discovery is fitted with four covered launches which are classed as lifeboats.
The passengers are seated in covered accommodation.
These boats are fitted with twin Volvo engines.
Rest assured my friends from Australia are not ignorant about cruise ships as for the last twenty five years they have made on average about four cruises a year so there is no need for your usual caustic comments as they do know a lot about cruise ships !
One of them is a retired senior officer from the Royal Australian Navy !
quote:Originally posted by Neil Whitmore ( Bob ):Ernestmv Discovery is fitted with four covered launches which are classed as lifeboats.The passengers are seated in covered accommodation.These boats are fitted with twin Volvo engines.Rest assured my friends from Australia are not ignorant about cruise ships as for the last twenty five years they have made on average about four cruises a year so there is no need for your usual caustic comments as they do know a lot about cruise ships !One of them is a retired senior officer from the Royal Australian Navy !Neil ( Bob )
Neil, these lifeboats are not sufficient capacity wise. Also, Discovery has many other deficits that make her very unfit for such an operation.
Also, I may advice you that it is not wise to boast around with the 'competence' of your sources.It is ridiculous at best to state that someone gains any experience in that matter by cruising a lot. There are certainly very knowledgeable people working in the Australian Navy but this does not make any officer an expert on expeditions to polar regions and it certainly does not change anything on the fact that the Discovery belongs to the group of ships that should not go there.
quote:Originally posted by Aussie1:Ernst, I wouldn't dismiss the opinions of an officer from the Royal Australian Navy so lightly, Australia looks after a vast amount of Antarctica and the Navy would certainly give their officers plenty of training regarding the region. The Navy often has a presence in the region trying to control illegal fishing.
I am fully aware of that. Mind you that we do not know the opinion of that gentleman and we also do not know his rank, his training and his background in general. On the other hand I can assure you that it is not only me personally but many, many people who are very likely more knowledgeable on that topic than most officers in the Australian Navy who just find it disgusting to see such unfit ships sailing in these waters.
Boasting around on where information is coming from is usually rather pointless - which is why I am trying not do that. Either you can back up a statement or not. A false statement is not becoming the truth even if the most respectable person made it. Discovery is unfit for cruises in that region for many reasons, and you can verify that. She has no double hull, open life boats, I would be very surprised to learn that all passengers are provided with proper survival suits etc. etc.
[ 03-02-2008: Message edited by: Ernst ]
Having been chatting to my friend in Australia this morning, he was rather interested in your comments about the Discovery cruise ship.
To start with he is a retired Commander from the Royal Australian Navy and has been Captain of several of their ships which have visited the Antartic.
He is interested to know why you think the Discovery is not suitable for cruising in the Antarctic when she was designed and built to cruise in Alaska.
He is aware that she might be a greater distance from land, than when in Alaska, but said it should be noted that she only carries 350 passengers on the Antartic cruises and with a very experienced English Captain in charge he considers the ship is in very good hands for cruising in this area.
He has also said that the company provide parkas for the passengers and a full information sheet on what extra clothing passengers are recommended to bring with them.
It looks like you are getting a bit short tempered again !
Nobody said that a parka was a survival suit !
What was said was that they they are provided and passengers also receive a list of other items to bring with them.
It was also not said that the ship was built for cruising in Antartica but she was built for cruising in Alaska which would still take her in amongst the ice.
I have also cruised Alaska on the Spirit of London, later re-named Sun Princess.
The Explorer, which sunk recently, was however built for cruising to the Antartic, but she did not have a double hull or covered life boats although her hull had been strengthened!
There are plenty of people who enjoy cruising in this area, and will continue to do so on the ship of their choice, even if you do not agree with it !
quote:Originally posted by Neil Whitmore ( Bob ):ErnstIt looks like you are getting a bit short tempered again !
This is just your personal interpretation.
quote:Nobody said that a parka was a survival suit !
Giving that this has been discussed above your posting indicated that you consider them as a replacement for survival suits. It still does not change the fact that survivial suits are not provided and this is extremely careless.
quote:It was also not said that the ship was built for cruising in Antartica but she was built for cruising in Alaska which would still take her in amongst the ice.
Her hull is certainly not built for encountering ice. Neither in Alaska nor in Antarctica. You should consider to inform yourself.
quote:I have also cruised Alaska on the Spirit of London, later re-named Sun Princess.
And?
quote:The Explorer, which sunk recently, was however built for cruising to the Antartic, but she did not have a double hull or covered life boats although her hull had been strengthened!
Just because someone says that a vessel is suitable or built for operating in this region does not make it suitable. Explorer was a one compartment ship (!) and did not have a double hull. Also, she had open life boats only. How much worse can it get?
(people often think that an 'ice hardened hull' like Explorer had is the solution for all problems. This is not the case is. It only allows a ship to e.g. follow an ice breaker - the hull is strengthened near the water line and there are certain other requirement e.g. concerning the propulsion plant - but this does not protect the ship against collisions with even small ice bergs. Some of the ships mentioned above nevertheless do not even have this basic protection)
quote:There are plenty of people who enjoy cruising in this area, and will continue to do so on the ship of their choice, even if you do not agree with it !Neil ( Bob )
I have no problem with tourism in this region - but please do it properly.Traveling by ship can in principle be a way to allow people to travel to this region in a safe manner that has a low impact on the environment. Nevertheless, many ships presently operating in this region are sadly totally unsuitable for that. They have severe deficits concerning the safety of the passengers and the impact on this sensitive environment.
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