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» Cruise Talk   » Cruise Ships   » LA to lose Queen Mary?

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Author Topic: LA to lose Queen Mary?
Joe99
First Class Passenger
Member # 3931

posted 04-27-2006 03:29 PM      Profile for Joe99     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't know if this is the proper forum (in not, I apologize) but I hate to see this beauty go away.

Here is the story:


L.A.'s Queen Mary in troubled waters
Tourism icon's operator in bankruptcy; move possible?

By Russ Britt, MarketWatch
Last Update: 9:44 AM ET Apr 27, 2006

LONG BEACH, Calif. (MarketWatch) -- She has been floating peacefully in a Los Angeles-area harbor for nearly four decades now, but the septuagenarian Queen Mary -- a tourism icon -- faces some rough waters in the months ahead.

What amounts to a landlord-tenant dispute between the ship's managers and the suburban city of Long Beach has landed the operators in bankruptcy, the resolution of which could be in doubt for some time.
The turbulence even has prompted whispers of a new owner coming in and whisking the grand old ship back to her birthplace in England, though that remains a remote possibility in most views. For one, it's doubtful that Long Beach would let the ship go.

"It's been a symbol of the city for a long time," said Joseph Prevratil, who has overseen the attraction's operations since 1993.
From her maiden voyage in 1936, the Queen Mary was the flagship of the storied Cunard fleet of ocean liners. She served as a troop carrier in World War II and after decades of transatlantic cruising, became the anchor attraction in a Long Beach tourist facility that draws about a million visitors a year.

Troubles began around 2000 for the Queen Mary, Long Beach and the two companies that operate the facility, the nonprofit RMS Foundation and Queens Seaport Development Inc., or QSDI.
Prevratil is currently the RMS president and was head of QSDI until a bankruptcy trustee took over the company earlier this month. In 2000, Prevratil was under the impression the company was entitled to rent credits for making improvements to the property around the ship.

As an incentive, Long Beach considered offering discounts off the rental of the facilities to QSDI if it would develop the area around the ship.
But the city says it never formally approved those rent credits -- and doubts whatever meager improvements the companies made would qualify to receive them. QSDI claims the city did grant those credits.

Default
Though it was able to pay its monthly bills, QSDI went into bankruptcy after the city declared the company was in default on $5 million in back rent. QSDI declared bankruptcy last year and was taken over by a trustee in early April. QSDI has $24.5 million in debt owed to one creditor, BarKay Investments.

The two sides also are feuding over the lack of progress in developing the area around the ship. Prevratil said that the city has rejected several possible developers he has brought forth to build up the parcel of land.
"The city said they would not deal with them," Prevratil said.

Long Beach officials say the operators have yet to bring forth a viable suitor. Only one plan was initiated, but it later was withdrawn by Prevratil, said Charles Parkin, a deputy city attorney.
"I don't believe it had anything to do with the city," Parkin said of the withdrawal. "I know of no one else that Mr. Prevratil has brought forward to the city."

Compounding the situation was a severe downturn for the tourism industry that followed the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. While other nearby tourism venues such as Disneyland have recovered, the Queen Mary has yet to return to its pre-9/11 income levels. As a result, it hasn't been able to promote the Queen Mary or take out significant blocks of advertising, Prevratil says.
Prevratil says revenue stands roughly at $34 million a year. It was $40 million or more prior to 9/11.

"Had we not had to pay $1 million in attorney's fees, it would have been easier to operate," Prevratil said.

The Queen Mary still captures interest as a wedding location, as well as a Sunday brunch spot in its elegant main hall. Its hotel is a novelty for those seeking an overnight getaway, and there are attractions that fire the imagination of some visitors, including legends of ghosts on board the ship that is the subject of one popular tour.

But interest in the ship has waned because operators were unable to spruce up and reinvent the attraction to keep visitors coming, said Jack Kyser, chief economist for the Los Angeles County Economic Development Corp., a local business promotional group.

"They constantly have to have something new or people will say, 'I've been there'," Kyser said. "They need to find somebody that has deep pockets and very strategic thinking about the whole thing."
Monument to glory days
The Queen Mary's initial attraction was as a monument to the glory days of 20th Century transatlantic passages. As host to luminaries from around the world, it was the largest ship of its day.
Stretching more than 1,000 feet, Queen Mary exceeded the length of White Star Line's ill-fated Titanic by more than 100 feet. Its gross tonnage was nearly double that of Titanic.

The Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth I were built in the 1930s and 1940s to replace Cunard's fleet of aging ships. Before it was through, the Queen Mary had 1,001 transatlantic crossings.
After 31 years at sea, the Queen Mary was about to be mothballed in 1967 when Long Beach bought it for $3.45 million. Rapidly growing at the time, the city had designs on creating a tourist attraction that would make the world notice the suburb, now the second-largest municipality in Los Angeles County.

Long Beach officials brought the massive ship over from England, and housed it at a pier in its giant harbor -- the U.S.'s second largest. That is where Queen Mary has remained, floating in a giant saltwater bathtub. It's surrounded by a breakwater fortress that keeps the ship perfectly still.

Today, the Queen Mary seems more a replica than vessel, housing museums and various shops. There also are hotel, bar and restaurant facilities, much of which remains in the art-deco style prominent in the ship's heyday. But much of the Queen Mary's inner workings, including its engines, have been gutted.

Anxious for development

The city long has wanted to develop the 40 acres adjacent to the Queen Mary, and hoped that an operator would come in and find a developer to move that along.

Hoping to generate more interest as a tourism attraction, the city in 1983 built the world's largest geodesic dome next to the ship to house Howard Hughes' famous Spruce Goose airplane, featured at the end of the 2004 film, "The Aviator."

But the plane captured limited interest and brought modest drawing power for the Queen Mary. It was purchased by an aviation museum and moved to Oregon in 1992.
The Walt Disney Co. (DISWalt Disney Company

CCL ) eventually found a use for the dome, and now uses it as a passenger terminal.

A number of plans have been developed for the Queen Mary and surrounding property. Inside the new, makeshift offices of Howard Ehrenberg, several tentative renderings are scattered throughout.
Appointed earlier this month as bankruptcy trustee, Ehrenberg, an attorney in a downtown Los Angeles firm, now oversees QSDI operations.

Various renderings center on another hotel, shops and attractions such as theaters inside portions of the giant Spruce Goose dome not being used by Carnival Cruises.
The plans seem far-fetched, particularly since Ehrenberg had been on the job barely more than a week but already saw signs the ship was slipping into disrepair. Many of the ship's long, teak decks were getting discolored and fading, for example.

"It's like the Golden Gate Bridge. You have to keep painting it," Ehrenberg said.

Tough to move

That high-maintenance aspect of the Queen Mary could also be what prevents it from relocating.

Roger Hardingham, a British businessman and filmmaker, has said he wants to buy the ship and return it to its place of origin, England's port of Southampton. Hardingham could not be reached for comment.
But that's a long shot. In addition to the fact it has no engines, the ship is too big to fit through the Panama Canal. That means it must make a more rigorous trip around Cape Horn if it is to head back to England.
Second, Southampton would have to ready itself to accommodate the ship. The port may not have the room, nor the inclination to make the necessary repairs to upgrade the ship.

Further, it appears Long Beach wants to hang on to it, though officials say a sale is remotely possible. The city is about a decade into its 66-year lease with QSDI, which may be up for grabs once bankruptcy proceedings conclude.

If no developer can step forward and developing the valuable harbor-front property, the city and port could be left with no choice but to sell the ship. And one thing standing in the way of a new seaport development is that a new environmental impact report will be needed -- often a lengthy, arduous process for any California entity.

But a formidable chain of events would have to be set in place for the Queen Mary to flee Long Beach, several sources say.

"I have to answer there is a possibility but the likelihood is in the single digits," said Parkin, the deputy city attorney.

Russ Britt is the Los Angeles bureau chief for MarketWatch.

[ 04-27-2006: Message edited by: joe at travelpage ]


Posts: 51 | From: midwest | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
J.S.S.Normandie
First Class Passenger
Member # 6253

posted 04-27-2006 07:06 PM      Profile for J.S.S.Normandie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks for posting that.

As host to luminaries from around the world, it was the largest ship of its day.

Although that's not true. The Normandie was launched in 1935 at 1028ft, QM was launched in 1936 at 118ft, and then the QE was around when Normandie burnt and was at the time the largest at 1031ft.

They really need to do something with the QM. Personally I think I f they turned one of her grand public rooms into a night club that could bring in money.


Posts: 1197 | From: Massachusetts where the Brittania was trapped! | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 04-27-2006 07:20 PM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The general public do not always appreciate floating hotels. For a start their location (in a rermote dock) is not ideal. Here is a pretty typical review of the QM, found on the net:

I read many of the terribe reviews, but decided that people just don't appreciate history like I do, and proceeded to book one night at the rate of $189/night. The front desk staff didn't seem like they were trained to work in a HOTEL. Our first room had a heating and ventilation problem. Our room was changed, with regret by the front desk clerk. Our second room was run down and filthy. The sheets and towels were like sandpaper, and the blankets smelled and looked like they hadn't been laundered in a VERY long time. The mattress had to be 20 years old, and was stained and ripped. I skipped taking a shower for fear of catching a disease, and was checked out, family and all by 7am the next morning. We didn't complain - I know it would have been like talking to a wall. There were no restaurants on the ship that looked even minimally intersting to us.
My recommendation - tour the ship - it's really interesting and educational. DO NOT MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE I MADE AND STAY IN THE "HOTEL"!!!

(Fortunately there are better reviews too)


Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
J.S.S.Normandie
First Class Passenger
Member # 6253

posted 04-27-2006 07:28 PM      Profile for J.S.S.Normandie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It needs a major refit. As rot the restaurant, Why they havn't turned the first class dining room into a formal restaurant is a mystery to me. If only they would build malls and other stores on that land people would be attracted to the queen and the tacky shops could be removed from her.
Posts: 1197 | From: Massachusetts where the Brittania was trapped! | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
lasuvidaboy
First Class Passenger
Member # 4527

posted 04-27-2006 08:00 PM      Profile for lasuvidaboy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They use the former 1st class dining room for Sunday brunch. The rest of the time these former public rooms are available as a rental space for meetings, receptions etc.
One of the problems w/QM is her location. She is away from the very popular area across the harbor. As that area has been developed very successfully over the last 15 years, the property near the Queen is in a time warp. I would relocate the ship to the other side of the harbor to bring her alongside where the action is. She would also need a major refit as 35 plus years without a major restoration is to long and it shows in places. The city of Long Beach spent over $60 million dollars rebuilding the ship in the late 1960s (the same amount Cunard spent to build QE2!) and it is time to re-invest to make her a success. There is no reason that she could not be profitable but creative minds that appreciate her status need to be involved.

Posts: 7654 | From: Hollywood Hills/L.A. | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
J.S.S.Normandie
First Class Passenger
Member # 6253

posted 04-27-2006 08:29 PM      Profile for J.S.S.Normandie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lasuvidaboy:
They use the former 1st class dining room for Sunday brunch.

I know, so why not use it for a formal restaurant if it makes a good brunch room.


Posts: 1197 | From: Massachusetts where the Brittania was trapped! | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
gpcruisedude
First Class Passenger
Member # 3533

posted 04-27-2006 10:53 PM      Profile for gpcruisedude   Email gpcruisedude   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Queen Mary does need alot spent on her and she needs something that will attract people to her!
Why dont they run shuttles from downtown Long Beach or maybe whoever runs the Queen Mary could contract out to a developer the lands near the QM! They need to put a good night club on her I think she would attract people then and a nice British Style Pub and a good steak house and seafood restaurant, after all she is a ship so seafood is just normal...and why not promote her as a Convention Centre and do something with Carnival for pre and post cruise packages!!

And maybe lower the Hotel rates and reno the hotel rooms, their is so much potential for the Queen Mary in Long Beach!!
Also maybe hook up with a Hotel Chain, I know they had her as a Hyatt a number of years ago!


Posts: 865 | From: Grande Prairie,Alberta | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
P&Ocruiser
First Class Passenger
Member # 5040

posted 04-28-2006 04:54 AM      Profile for P&Ocruiser   Email P&Ocruiser   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
i think the major down fall is her location, i visisted her in jan 05 and thought who the hell would want to stay out here, if u want her primary revenue to be at hotel dock her were hotels r in demand. i no this example isnt realistic but just giving a soloution, if u were to place her in sydney dock her next door to the opera house/ circular quay she would be full year round, not at wollongong, it seems they did this in california
Posts: 261 | From: Sydney | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 04-28-2006 05:09 AM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by P&Ocruiser:
i think the major down fall is her location..

If a hotel chain had the choice of buying an ex-liner as a hotel in a dock or building a new hotel in the heart of a city, you can see the attraction of bricks and mortar.

I imagine the maintainance costs of a conventional building must be so much cheaper than that of a liner.


Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
bulbousbow
First Class Passenger
Member # 4440

posted 04-29-2006 11:44 PM      Profile for bulbousbow   Author's Homepage   Email bulbousbow   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
P&Ocruiser wrote:
if u were to place her in sydney dock her next door to the opera house/ circular quay she would be full year round, not at wollongong, it seems they did this in california

Exactly. She would have to be anchored somewhere easily accessible by foot and public transport, and where there would be heavy tourist traffic. Also in a city/harbour where her historical significance would be more appreciated.

******

Cheers


Posts: 6866 | From: Adelaide, Australia | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
bulbousbow
First Class Passenger
Member # 4440

posted 04-29-2006 11:55 PM      Profile for bulbousbow   Author's Homepage   Email bulbousbow   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Malcolm wrote:
If a hotel chain had the choice of buying an ex-liner as a hotel in a dock or building a new hotel in the heart of a city, you can see the attraction of bricks and mortar.

They could also buy an existing hotel or convert another building.

quote:
I imagine the maintainance costs of a conventional building must be so much cheaper than that of a liner.

This would be one of the prime reasons for not buying a ship, maintenance. Also, the location is very important. You can't have a ship in the middle of a land-locked city can you? If you tried to, it would cost you an arm-and-a-leg to have her dismantled, get her there and rebuilt.

The only advantage a ship has, is that she can move from one harbour to another. In that case why have QUEEN MARY ply the seas when you are better off building a new one with all the amenities (see RCI)?

******

Cheers


Posts: 6866 | From: Adelaide, Australia | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Linerdan
First Class Passenger
Member # 4719

posted 04-30-2006 01:42 AM      Profile for Linerdan   Email Linerdan   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by bulbousbow:

This would be one of the prime reasons for not buying a ship, maintenance. Also, the location is very important. You can't have a ship in the middle of a land-locked city can you? If you tried to, it would cost you an arm-and-a-leg to have her dismantled, get her there and rebuilt.

******

Cheers


I saw this on MM site last year , check out the 1st picture.It must of cost a bit and it dosent suit the surroundings at all.

Maritime matters


Posts: 397 | From: Australia.....NSW......Jervis Bay | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged

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