"Cruising is no longer a luxurious experience".

1) Today's ships are ugly, mass-produced, and totally lacking in any character or charm. The chief concern of the designers is how many cabins and how may retail outlets and bars they can squeeze in to the hull? It does even matter if the hull rocks and rolls!

2)The various cruise lines of the world are increasingly offering a homogenous and bland experience.

3) Passengers are just numbers. Individual attention is simply impossible on today's mega-ship

4)Long lines of passengers at self-service cafes with plastic trays and plates, has replaced fine dining.

5) It simply is not possible to prepare and serve first class cuisine for 2000 plus people!

6) Luxury is not sharing a dining room, a theatre or a ship with 2000 plus strangers!

7) Self service coffee stations with instant coffee and plastic cups, has replaced waiter service.

8) The Captain's cocktail party is simply an excuse to try and sell 2000 photographs. It is meaningless on a mega-ship.

9) Even if a more intimate, superior dinning room is provided, you are requires you to pay a supplement.

10)Embarcation and disembarcation feel more like you are waiting in an Airport departure lounge, than for a ship!

Today's cruise ships are no more than slightly upmarket (upscale) holiday camps, for the masses.

Comments please?

[ 07-31-2002: Message edited by: Malcolm @ cruisepage ]

4. Fine dining? When was there ever fine dining on cruise ships? Maybe in the days of the liners, in first class, but they paid for it (or in the later days the government subsidies did). What do people expect when they pay $349 for a 1-week cruise? Maybe people who pay a lot more for a better cabin wish they could get better food for their higher fare, but everyone gets the same food so what can you do?

5. Maybe, but what percentage of ships today actually hold 2000+ passengers? And why do catered events on land often seem to be able to do better? Maybe it's the money thing again. The chef may also have something to do with it, since there can be amazing inconsistency in the quality of food on one line. During the last 10 years, my 2 best cruises for cuisine have been 1 on RCI (Song of America) and 1 on NCL (Sea), both outstanding. Other cruises on the same lines (in one case even the same ship) have been very different experiences.

1. Cruising is the fastest growing segement of the vacation market- which means the average passenger has changed a lot. The lines are no longer just competing with each other, but with land based vactions too. People want flexibility and casual atmospheres.

2. Cruises are far more affordable than 25 years ago. True, on the average cruise today service is not outstanding and general quality is lower- but so is the price. If you want a cruise experience that is luxurious you have to pay luxury prices.

3. Because the industry has grown so rapidly- with so many new ships entering service- the cruise lines have been franticly recruiting new crew members. The pace is so fast that training is rushed, and service become poor. The best service I have had on a recent cruise was on Grand Princess in 1999. My waiter was a veteren from Sitmar Cruises- he was incredible. He took great pride in his work, had my wine waiting at my seat before I arrived, and was a delight. 2 years later on Dawn Princess my waiter was a young guy- he advanced quickly to waiter with more than 1 year as an assistant waiter- while polite- the service was slow, impersonal, and forgetable. That is typical today.

4. Most passengers don't know what they are missing. Those of us that cruised 20+ years ago remember the high level of attention, food quality, and service. In that day the ship was not the destination- it was nice to be on a beautiful ship, but older ships with fantastic service and great itinerary was enough. Anyone that has started cruising in the past 10 years is used to the ship being the major draw. So the energy and focus of the cruise lines has shifted to huge ships with unusual options (like iceskating rinks and rock climbing walls) and away from fantasic service.

MY ANSWER: Someone needs to develop a cruise line with moderate sized ships (50,000 tons max) with a focus on SERVICE, FOOD, and ITINERARY (not ice rinks and atriums)- and (here is the key) at a MODERATE PRICE. You can find this today, but only on very expensive luxury lines... I thought Renissance might fill this need, but that obviously did not happen. If P&O Princess, RCCL, or Carnival Corp are listening- I would be happy to come onboard as a consultant to launch this new cruise line.

[ 07-31-2002: Message edited by: skyej ]

On the next two cruises, I still had a wonderful time and will always love going on cruises, but I noticed more things were not perfect.

I think the personnel on the bus taking us to the ship spoke to the busload of us like we were idiots - just plain rude, almost. All three times they needed a class on people skills.

I think the feeling of being herded when leaving for excursions increased with each cruise. Part of the problem is in the people doing the herding - obviously, we have to leave as a group if we sign up for an excursion.

I'm not sure how to avoid the herding problem when departing with the size of most ships, but more organization would help.

I have always been at an assigned table at dinner, and enjoyed our waiter and the service he gave us very much. If all cruise lines go to open dining, then I feel service would have to change and would seem like a decline in the overall cruise experience to me. I don't know if this will eventually happen across the board with cruise lines, or not.

The photographers and assistants who take the pictures on the formal nights could be more professional and look for glare from glasses, crooked glasses, off center necklaces, etc, that result in a lesser quality photograph. I think they should want to provide a high quality photograph.

I've often felt that there was a market, albeit probably for empty-nesters, for mid size (50,000 tonne max.) ships that put the emphasis on first class accomomdations, excellent food, friendly and professional staff and good destinations. Period.

I don't need or want an ice skating rink, a rock climbing wall or a glitzy Las Vegas style show or a choice of eight different ethnic eateries.

I've been on eight cruises now (I know, a fraction of what many of you here have taken) but I still remember most fondly my first cruise on the old HAL Veendam in 1983. It offered what I've described above at an affordable price.

In fact, I can't help but wonder if there aren't a sizable number of people who would pay a modestly higher price to avoid just what so many of the megaships provide!

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Originally posted by skyej:
MY ANSWER: Someone needs to develop a cruise line with moderate sized ships (50,000 tons max) with a focus on SERVICE, FOOD, and ITINERARY (not ice rinks and atriums)- and (here is the key) at a MODERATE PRICE. You can find this today, but only on very expensive luxury lines... I thought Renissance might fill this need, but that obviously did not happen. If P&O Princess, RCCL, or Carnival Corp are listening- I would be happy to come onboard as a consultant to launch this new cruise line.

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In a perfect world...

Yes I would like this very much. It would be the perfect cruise line for me. But would it be profitable in today's market?

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Originally posted by Malcolm @ cruisepage:
1) Today's ships are ugly, mass-produced, and totally lacking in any character or charm. The chief concern of the designers is how many cabins and how may retail outlets and bars they can squeeze in to the hull? It does even matter if the hull rocks and rolls!

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Personally I don't think all of the new ships are this way. Some certainly are. And others aren't.

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2)The various cruise lines of the world are increasingly offering a homogenous and bland experience.

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This is inarguably true. The lines are diverging together to a black hole of mediocrity and sameness at an astounding and alarming rate. On my most recent cruises, if you removed all of the ship-names and corporate logos, and all mention of company name, and didn't tell me what cruise line or ship I was on, I wouldn't have been able to tell what cruise line I was on. The exception being that I could probably still identify the logoless exterior of the ship, and if there is the occasional "only here" feature like the mall on Voyager I could tell. But food, service, atmosphere, etc. is virtually identical on all of my recent cruises.

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3) Passengers are just numbers. Individual attention is simply impossible on today's mega-ship

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Yes and no. On the ships being designed by the cruise lines, this is true. But I'd bet that individual attention will be possible on QM2, for instance! So it doesn't have to do directly with the size of ship, but more the number of people put in it, and the quality of the people managing it.

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4)Long lines of passengers at self-service cafes with plastic trays and plates, has replaced fine dining.

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On Royal Caribbean this is inarguably true! The food ranged from mediocre to absolutely horrendous and no class or style was present in the dining experience throughout the entire cruise! The atmosphere in the buffet restaurant was that of a sligtly upscale school cafeteria.

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5) It simply is not possible to prepare and serve first class cuisine for 2000 plus people!

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I had very good food indeed on the 2,000+ passenger Grand Princess but lousy food on the also huge Voyager of the Seas. It has to do more with the individual ship than the sheer size.

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6) Luxury is not sharing a dining room, a theatre or a ship with 2000 plus strangers!

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If the room is properly proportioned luxury is quite possible. If not, it is not.

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7) Self service coffee stations with instant coffee and plastic cups, has replaced waiter service.

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This is made even worse when the stations are empty or dirty or otherwise in dire need of attention from the crew as they invariably were on Voyager of the Seas. And when crew did arrive, they were indifferent at best and surly at worst.

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8) The Captain's cocktail party is simply an excuse to try and sell 2000 photographs. It is meaningless on a mega-ship.

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No kidding. It was one thing when the captain would come around in a real lounge and mingle, etc. - at least that was classy - but in a theatre it is useless. On Voyager it was done in the "mall" and looked more like a disastrous mob scene run than anything else.

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9) Even if a more intimate, superior dinning room is provided, you are requires you to pay a supplement.

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Yes you are on most major lines/ships!

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10)Embarcation and disembarcation feel more like you are waiting in an Airport departure lounge, than for a ship!

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It has gotten better over the years by far IMHO.

And regarding Holland America, I know they may be perfect but I seem to have some great and inexplicable force getting in my way whenever I try to sail them. So HAL fans, I do try !

1. The cruise line would need to be part of a larger cruise company- one of the big three (P&O Princess, RCCL, or Carnival). This way the line can save costs through economies of scale- by sharing suppliers, technical crews, and other such things.

2. A major source of revenue for ships comes from all the extra onboard spending (casino, specialty restaurants, shops...). On my perfect cruise line there would be no extra costs to eat anywhere. To make up this loss of profit I would offer more shore excursion options, with some at a higher price. Also, offer great spa packages, pre and post cruise hotel packages, and other 'luxury' extras that can be offered at a huge profit- BUT DO NOT expect people to pay extra for things that traditionally were included in the cruise fare.

3. The industry often figures cost to build a ship on a "per cabin" scale. A 90,000 ton ship that cost $300 million with 1400 cabins costs $214,000 per cabin. The problem is a ship half the size is not half the price. A 45,000 ton ship with 700 cabins will not be $150 million. It would more likely be $200 million or $285,000 per cabin. That explains why smaller ships are usually built by luxury lines- they can charge more per passenger... and why mainstream lines keep building larger ships... they generate more profit per cabin.

To overcome this problem 2 things must be done. First, lower the cost of building a 45,000 ton ship. And second, charge more money on average per cabin. How you ask?

To lower the cost of building the ship I recommend two things- first look at alternate shipyards. There are numerous smaller yards that may be able to build smaller ships at a lower cost. (like where Aida, Raddison Seven Seas, and Silverseas build their ships) Or even in Korea and Japan. And the other thing I would do is order multiple ships at once. This is what Renissance tried to do. By ordering ships in bulk the development costs go down. Likewise if the new cruise line were part of a larger group (again P&O, RCCL, or Carnival) the bulk order could include ships for another brand (larger ships of a different design)- the shipyard could be forced into discounting the price for such a huge order.

To increase the average profit per cabin- without turning it into a luxury cruise line- i would offer a deck of suites with special services that could be sold for a higher profit margin. Secondly, really go after the business and convention market-. Offer space on the ships for meetings and conferences for a fee- the business world gives the hotel and resort industry HUGE amounts of business... cruise lines have not tapped into this market much. Finally, offer lots of cabins with 3rd and 4th beds for families, and offer an exceptional children's program. Why? The cost of the ship is figured PER CABIN, not PER PASSENGER. By targeting families the cruise line and increase the number of people buying their onboard stuff- without the need for lots of extra space. Kid's areas can occupy smaller, and less used parts of the ship. The revenue produced by luxury suites, businesses, and children can pay for the ships- and keep the costs down for average cruisers.

4. Finally, market the cruise line AGAINST what all the other mass-market lines are doing. By emphasizing service, food, and great itineraries at the same price as the other guys the line will have no shortage of passengers. Don't market the line as a better value, but as a better experience.

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Originally posted by gohaze:
Well Well, I certainly like to see all these people describing why we like sailing with Orient. As far as making money, the Marco Polo for two years running made more profit than the whole of NCL put together, which illustrates what can happen with a well run vessel.
...peter

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I have always believed that Orient is a bright star in the dark cruise universe. I only wish Star/NCL would invest in expanding the line with new ships- and develop the Orient product.

I had hoped that whoever purchased the R ships from Renissance would develop another cruise line along the model I described above- they would be perfect ships (with some minor exceptions- like lack of deck space). But, alas, that does not seem to be in the cards.

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Originally posted by Dolphins:
CruiseNY: If you are really looking for a 50,000 ton ship with only 1,200 passengers, good food and service, tasteful ambience at a moderate price then you really should try one of HAL's "S" class ships. Don't write the off because Carnival owns them. They also own the QM2 and there is no guarantee it won't be just another mega-ship.

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Believe me, I've been booked on these ships and for various reasons it has not all panned out .

I very much want to try HAL, really!

No one mentioned "Deutschland." I have never sailed on this ship. Yet the luxury and ambiance criteria which are justifiiably decried as lacking on the mass-market ships apparently exists, and then some, on this ship, according to the cruise reviews.

Silversea, Crystal, Seaborne, ... they are all out there. But for the budget cruises, you get what you pay for, and what is more, they are apparently making money by such tactics.