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Author

Topic: Explorer of the Seas rumor

tg_lindo
First Class Passenger
Member # 806

posted 11-20-2000 11:50 PM

Were there any news items, or does anyone know, whether the brand new Explorer recently snagged something underwater that caused an 11 degree list, putting her within a narrow margin of falling over?

Seems far fetched to me, but this rumor was making the rounds on the tender back to SS Norway from St Thomas last Wednesday.

(p.s. Explorer is SO huge she makes the Grand Princess seem not so grand.)

Posts: 349 | From: San Francisco, CA | Registered: May 99 | IP: Logged

jasonalec
First Class Passenger
Member # 1413

posted 11-21-2000 01:51 AM

That would have to be some snag!!

Posts: 46 | Registered: Jul 2000 | IP: Logged

gohaze
First Class Passenger
Member # 586

posted 11-21-2000 11:01 AM

Sounds like another 'Urban Legend'. She'd have to go a long way past 11 degrees before there would be a problem
....peter

Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99 | IP: Logged

nzmike
First Class Passenger
Member # 1308

posted 11-21-2000 06:34 PM

Most ships are designed so tht their lifeboats can be launched with a list of up to 30-35 degrees - with the "point of no return" being significantly past this. Eleven degrees would be disconcerting as a passenger but completely safe (assuming that no no water was pouring in!)

Posts: 186 | From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged

born2cruise
Just Boarded
Member # 1620

posted 11-22-2000 09:32 AM

I sailed on Explorer 10/28. We encountered 60mph+ winds between St. Thomas & Nassau, which she handled quite well. A crew member who has been on the ship since RCCL took delivery, told me about the Atlantic crossing to N.Y. They encountered force 9 winds and 25 foot seas...she survived that nicely. It is truly a magnificent ship, and I highly reccomend it. In this case, bigger IS better.

Posts: 8 | From: Longview, Texas, USA | Registered: Oct 2000 | IP: Logged

lillian
First Class Passenger
Member # 669

posted 11-22-2000 10:05 AM

Joe and Malcolm

This is not about the rumour, which I presume is false.

Do you know if the Explorer is going to have a camera to view the bridge soon like the Voyager has.

Posts: 95 | From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jul 99 | IP: Logged

Jesse C
First Class Passenger
Member # 1678

posted 11-22-2000 10:20 AM

What is the point of no rerturn?

I do know that the lifeboats on the port side of the TN Andrea Doria couldn't be launched.

Is it possible to stick lifeboats on the stern of a cruise ship and situate them to work from Deck 5 (4th above the waterline)?

Posts: 244 | From: Houston, Texas, United States of America | Registered: Nov 2000 | IP: Logged

Ryndam
First Class Passenger
Member # 1315

posted 11-22-2000 11:11 AM

SOLAS Chapter III Regulation 12: "Launching stations shall be in such positions as to ensure safe launching having particular regard to clearance from the propeller". This is the reason why we don't have lifeboat hanging over the stern.

SOLAS Chapter III Regulation 13.1.2: "Each survival craft shall be stowed as near the water surface as is safe and praticable, in such a position that the survival craft in the embarkation position is not less than 2 meters (about 6 feet) above the waterline with the ship in the fully loaded condition under unfavourable conditions of trim of up to 10 degrees and listed up to 20 degrees either way".
A lifeboat can be located at any height, but of course it's less dangerous to have them on deck 3 (like on the Spirit class) on deck 7 (like on the Fantasy class).

SOLAS Chapter III Regulation 16.6: "Falls shall be long enough for the survival craft to reach the water with the ship in its lightest seagoing condition, under unfavourable condition of trim of up to 10 degrees and list of up to 20 degrees either way".

Regarding the "point of no return" or capsizing angle, the matter is a little bit more complicated. Of course it varies from ship to ship, and one should consider both the static and the dinamic stability. An average angle could be 40 degrees.

In my opinion it's impossible that something underwater can cause a 11 degrees list to a ship like the Explorer, except for the sea bottom or something seen in the "Deep Rising" movie.

Ryndam

Posts: 260 | From: Genoa (Italy) | Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged

Jesse C
First Class Passenger
Member # 1678

posted 11-22-2000 08:53 PM

Ryndam, I did see a cypriot cargo ship in the Port of Houston have a Lifeboat at the Stern, It was up high, though.

Another thing, what if the davits are able to swing to the far left or right so the lifeboat can land 6 or more feet adjacent to the propellers.

Have a watery good time,
Jesse

Posts: 244 | From: Houston, Texas, United States of America | Registered: Nov 2000 | IP: Logged

mrblanche
First Class Passenger
Member # 714

posted 11-22-2000 09:09 PM

You will occasionally see escape boats mounted at the rear of the crew areas on oil tankers. They are pointing downward, and the crew can escape by climbing in, getting in special "crash" couches, and hitting a release. The boat will fall almost 100 feet, bow first, and automatically right itself. Quite impressive.

Posts: 308 | From: Cedar Hill, TX | Registered: Aug 99 | IP: Logged

gohaze
First Class Passenger
Member # 586

posted 11-22-2000 10:37 PM

Hi..stern launched enclosed lifeboats are now found on most new cargo vessels and even container ships, as well as tankers. They also carry an emergency boat - usually a semi-rigid type, and an inflateable liferaft.
...peter

Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99 | IP: Logged

Jesse C
First Class Passenger
Member # 1678

posted 11-22-2000 10:59 PM

That is what I was thinking of. Stern launched lifeboats, only from Deck 5. I made up a ship and it has two of these.

Have a floaty good time..
Jesse

Posts: 244 | From: Houston, Texas, United States of America | Registered: Nov 2000 | IP: Logged

Grant
First Class Passenger
Member # 1000

posted 11-22-2000 11:22 PM

There was recently a serious accident in the Port of Vancouver with one of the stern mounted lifeboats that shoot down into the sea. The boat somehow tumbled into the water rather than shooting bow first, from a new bulk carrier. The boat capsized, killing several crew. Reports in the press indicated that this was the first known failure of this "launching" type of lifeboat.
I would also like to commend "Ryndam" for the excellent answers he so often provides regarding technical aspects of vessel operations. His knowledge and willingness to share that is very much appreciated by myself, and I'm sure to other serious readers of this board.

Posts: 834 | From: Victoria, BC, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000 | IP: Logged

Ryndam
First Class Passenger
Member # 1315

posted 11-23-2000 01:49 AM

"Free-fall" lifeboats are usually installed on board oil tanker, chemical tanker and other cargo ship where the evacuation must be quick. Also for the free-fall lifeboats there many regulation concerning their construction and installation.

INTERNATIONAL LIFE SAVING APPLIANCE CODE Chapter IV Regulation 4.7.3.1: "Each free-fall lifeboat shall make positive headway immediately after water entry and shall not come into contact with ther ship after a free-fall launching against a trim of up to 10 degrees and a list of up to 20 degress either way".

INTERNATIONAL LIFE SAVING APPLIANCE CODE Chapter IV Regulation 4.7.7: "The certificate of approval for a free-fall lifeboat shall also state the free-fall certification height, the required launching ramp length and the launching ramp angle for the free-fall certification height".

There is also an additional regulation valid only for passeger ships: SOLAS Chapter III Regulation 24 (1996 amendments effective July 1998): "The height of the davit head with the survival craft in embarkation position, shall, as far as praticable, not exceed 15 meters to the waterline when the ship is in its lightest seagoing condition".

Ryndam

Posts: 260 | From: Genoa (Italy) | Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged

Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 11-23-2000 05:32 AM

Lillian, I have no info on a bridge cam. But I would expect her to get one?

Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago! | IP: Logged

joe at travelpage
Administrator
Member # 622

posted 11-23-2000 07:59 PM

I too would like to publicly commend and thank Ryndam for his excellent insights and contributions to this board. He, Gerry and others in the business bring a unique perspective ot the subject matter.

Thanks again.

Joe at TravelPage.com

Posts: 29976 | From: Great Falls, Virginia | Registered: A Long Time Ago! | IP: Logged

Jesse C
First Class Passenger
Member # 1678

posted 11-28-2000 01:21 AM

What about inflatable life vests?
I know they are on airplanes. The ones that you get out of the packaging, fasten around your body, and you pull the strings. Are they on any cruise ships? If they are, I think it is a smart choice. You can fit more in a container. However, these are more delicate, so staterooms should have tough lifejacket containers to store them in.

Again, are they used on ships?

Have a great time,
Jesse

Posts: 244 | From: Houston, Texas, United States of America | Registered: Nov 2000 | IP: Logged

Ryndam
First Class Passenger
Member # 1315

posted 11-28-2000 04:05 AM

I never seen inflatable life-jackets on board cruise ships, even if they are accepted by SOLAS as "personal life-saving appliances" like the traditional life-jackets. The main reason why we don't have them on board is a maintenance problem: every inflatable life-jacket shall be serviced at intervals not exceeding 12 months (SOLAS Chapter III Regulation 20.8.1.1). The second reason is that inflatable life-jackets are more expensive; for the Carnival Spirit we ordered 6110 life-jackets. The third reason is that some passenger may try them inside their cabins or during the boat drill; we'll have the replace several bottles every week.

Ryndam

Posts: 260 | From: Genoa (Italy) | Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged

Gerry
First Class Passenger
Member # 168

posted 11-28-2000 10:13 AM

The question of large ship stability is a fascinating one. The point of no return is the angle that a ship can heel over and still recover to the upright, without any further outside influence. This is often quite substantial. However, prior to that angle being reached, the ship will usually attain an angle when progressive flooding takes place which would compound the problem anyway. If you looked at some cruise ships, they may easily attain an angle of some 30-35 degrees as an angle of no return but before that, at about 20 degrees, water would enter the vessel through weak windows or open (non-watertight) doors.
QE2 is a fantastic example of how it should be done. She can heel over to 55 degrees (!)and still return to the upright but water would be ingressing at about 40 degrees. This is far in excess of what would feel uncomfortable, a heavy roll in a storm may move any passenger ship over about 5 to 10 degrees which would feel very uncomfortable but still well within what would be a problem.
The most QE2 has ever rolled in her 3 decades is 21 degrees which was very unusual and due to a freak build up and combination of swells. Other than that one ocassion, she very rarely rolls more than about 10 degrees as an absolute max.

Posts: 315 | From: Miami, Florida, (originally from UK) | Registered: Jun 99 | IP: Logged

Norway
First Class Passenger
Member # 1279

posted 11-28-2000 11:16 AM

I think its very fascinating too. But does anyone know how high the waves can be before ships like the VOTS and Destiny have to give up. Shouldnt they be able to take rougher seas(at low speed) than for example QE2 and Norway since they have so high bows and wide bodies(that makes them much more stable?)? Or is it only stremlineshaped hulls that work on high waves?

Posts: 31 | From: Trondheim, Norway | Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged

Gerry
First Class Passenger
Member # 168

posted 11-28-2000 02:50 PM

Size isn't everything as they say....
A ship is either a good sea boat or she isn't but usually the better ships in a seaway tend to be of an older design with more streamline hulls and bows that cut through a wave and rely on the ships buoyancy to bring it over the top of the rest of the swell. On board one of these ships in a headswell for example, they will pitch up and down but with a smooth motion. A more modern cruise ship has a relatively blunt bow and will bang into the wave sending a shockwave through the ship with the associated noises and shakes. The buoyancy is not as relevant. brute force is used instead and for these ships there is no elegance about how they ride a sea. I have been on board QE2 when steaming through a large head swell at 28 knots, pitching over the swells. We were overtaking another more modern cruise ship (I won't mention any names) which was crashing along, fighting every wave and sending up a massive wave and spray with every pounding lurch. Whats more they were doing no more than about 8 knots.
A good sea ship will have a particular look about her. Norway, QE2 et al are quite distinctive compared to other modern designs were every square inch of available space is devoted to passenger space and not liner hull design which is quite expensive in terms of space.
The other aspect is that Liner type ships have a much, much stronger construction, there is more steel in the hull with more frequent ribs, stiffeners and stringers. They do not shudder and shake in heavy weather anything like a modern cruise ship. It is this shockwave that runs through a ship which causes structural damage and therefore by their very nature, modern cruise ships have a much lower threshold of operation on a heavy sea.

[This message has been edited by Gerry (edited 11-28-2000).]

Posts: 315 | From: Miami, Florida, (originally from UK) | Registered: Jun 99 | IP: Logged

Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 11-28-2000 03:30 PM

Very well put, Gerry!

quote:

A more modern cruise ship has a relatively blunt bow and will bang into the wave sending a shockwave through the ship with the associated noises and shakes.

I heard it described as 'Slapping' the sea!

Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago! | IP: Logged

Norway
First Class Passenger
Member # 1279

posted 11-28-2000 03:40 PM

Thank you for the reply Gerry. About gentle and "shakingless" ride in "normal" stormconditions I understand that the new ships cant compete with elegant ships like Qe2. But when the conditions get real rough, lets say waves over 30 meters..., didnt Qe2 recive some damage on the Atlantic for a while ago? How would the new megaships react in such conditions, at very slow speed? New large oil tankers has no problems in these conditions. Here in Norway we have several oil instalations in the North Sea. Its often stormy and the waves gets over 15 meters, giant waves like 25 meters is not so rare. Why are the supply ships that operates there constructed just as "boxy" as the new cruiseships to survive in these conditons? Can it be because they dont ned speed(therfore not streamlineshape), and the box design is still strong enough?
I haver never been on a new and big cruiseship in bad weather. Not so often in good eather, I have been 2 times on Norway, 1 time on Royal Viking Sky, not new ships. But I have been several times in bad weather with "normal" ships in the North Sea. In the summerhollydays I work on a dredger, when the big waves comes strait on the bow, the ship shakes a lot and must slow down. But if the waves comes in from any other direction, the ship can maintain full speed, and the shaking is weak or gone. Is this the case on the new large cruiseships too?

Posts: 31 | From: Trondheim, Norway | Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged

gohaze
First Class Passenger
Member # 586

posted 11-28-2000 05:57 PM

Gerry...a couple of good descriptions.
However, this is like trying to match apples and oranges. Liners as the name implies, were designed to operate on certain routes of the owners. A ship designed for the Western Ocean Express trade was a lot different to an African Mail Ship or one for the Far East or Antipodes.
An oil rig designed to operate at 50 below all year in the Arctic Ocean is an entirely different creature from one for the Tropics.
Similarly, today's cruise ships are not Liners, they do a very good job for which they are designed with excellent and very efficient hull forms.
You probably have the data around Gerry, so could you show us how the fuel consumption of the QE2 climbs above say 20kts

....peter

Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99 | IP: Logged

Norway
First Class Passenger
Member # 1279

posted 11-29-2000 10:49 AM

But does anybody know how much the new big liners are constructed to take!?

Posts: 31 | From: Trondheim, Norway | Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged

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