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Author Topic: Russian submarine sank !
Patrick
First Class Passenger
Member # 364

posted 08-15-2000 01:34 PM      Profile for Patrick     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yesterday, a Russian submarine boat from the Russian navy sank in the Barentsea.
It was underway with 116 crew-members in the Arctic waters, when probably an explosion or a colission damaged a torpedo-tube at the bow and water came in.
The atomar-reactors which give the power and energy for the KURSK were switched off and do not cause any demages to the environment.
Difficult will be how to rescue the 116 people onboard. The Russian navy announced today that everybody onboard is alive and the crew will try to save as much oxigene as possible by laying down and not moving too much around. Due to the shut-down of the atomar engines, the electricity and oxigene production onboard the KURSK is no longer provided.
Several rescue- and navy ships are at place already and also some other submarines. It is still not clear how they want to recover the ship and rescue the people.
Russian navy although did not accept any help of the American navy which would provide helpful material to recover the submarine. The KURSK was originally build to defend Russia from the American aircraft-carriers and Russia does not want to show the technology of such an atomar-submarine to the US Navy which is quite logical.
Official although say that it will be impossible to recover the KURSK from where she is now. She is laying at a level of -100 meters and it will be impossible too for the crew to leave the ship in this depth because the water pressure is already too high.

Posts: 1680 | From: OSC Luxembourg | Registered: Nov 98  |  IP: Logged
Premier
First Class Passenger
Member # 1463

posted 08-15-2000 01:39 PM      Profile for Premier     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I heard it on the news last night. They collided with a unknown object. Something very similar happend to a sub from the U.S. they used a chamber to rescue them the chamber is still stored somwhere today.
Posts: 64 | From: New Jersey(Birthplace of the Emerald Seas) | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
James
First Class Passenger
Member # 1351

posted 08-15-2000 04:05 PM      Profile for James   Email James   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Premier, you are remembering the Squalus which went down in '39 or '40. I don't know about the water depth. They do need a special hatch to which the rescue bell attaches.
Posts: 202 | From: Illinois, Home of Lincoln and great graft | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
Beezo
First Class Passenger
Member # 1505

posted 08-15-2000 04:18 PM      Profile for Beezo   Author's Homepage   Email Beezo   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
i cant believe that. this is horrible
what will happen if they cant get them out?

Beezo


Posts: 865 | From: Massachusetts, USA | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Premier
First Class Passenger
Member # 1463

posted 08-15-2000 04:28 PM      Profile for Premier     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes I am talking about the Squalus.The hatch was located at the bottom of the bell I belive. I saw it on a program on the Discovery channel.
Posts: 64 | From: New Jersey(Birthplace of the Emerald Seas) | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Rex
First Class Passenger
Member # 1113

posted 08-16-2000 09:04 AM      Profile for Rex     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Remember "Airport 77", the film about the 747 that crashes and sinks in the Bermuda Triangle? They raised that plane using balloons. It is a valid rescue tool. The Navy SEALs I worked for back in '88 say it works. Why can't they lift the submarine up that way, instead of using the bell, which could take hours and hours?
Posts: 1413 | From: Philadelphia PA, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
sympatico
First Class Passenger
Member # 797

posted 08-16-2000 09:56 AM      Profile for sympatico     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From what I heard on the radio yesterday, the weather is very bad and is hampering rescue operations. Also, the Russians have not asked for assistance from any other country, although on todays news it said the are "considering asking NATO for help". I think by the time they make up their mind to ask for assistance it will be too late.
Beezo - you asked "what will happen if they can't get them out"? Sad to say, but they will expire with no ventilation/air.
I also heard on our news that it was an explosion inside the ship.
Let's all pray that these men are rescued.

Posts: 3305 | From: Toronto, Ont. Canada | Registered: Jul 99  |  IP: Logged
Cunardcoll
First Class Passenger
Member # 1226

posted 08-16-2000 11:37 AM      Profile for Cunardcoll   Author's Homepage   Email Cunardcoll   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I know that the Americans have a ship that has a giant claw to take sunken submarines from the bottom , but the problem is the russian ego , they don't want anyone to see that they are weak , they can't do anything , the russians think they don't need help but they do need help and fast , russia has no money anymore , no good ships , their subs are getting old and they can't fix them or build new ones , russia is just not what it was 10 or 15 years ago , USA has the power of the world now , not Russia !!
Posts: 947 | From: Belgium | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Patrick
First Class Passenger
Member # 364

posted 08-16-2000 01:39 PM      Profile for Patrick     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cunardcoll, I think you don´t know that Russia still has some potential left.
They have many good vessels around and also they have the best Arctic and Antarctic nuclear-powered ice-breaker-fleet in the world ! Further more, the have excellent ship-recover material-ships and expedition-ships which are often chartered and used by Western operators and countries.
I would not think that Russia is not a respectable world-nation anymore...

Well, to come back to the subject, Russia today has accepted some help from the British Royal Navy. But the situation is still very difficult to watch over since there are no more signs from the submarine and the weather is not very good either.
I just hope for the 116 people onboard that they are rescued very soon !


Posts: 1680 | From: OSC Luxembourg | Registered: Nov 98  |  IP: Logged
AJL
First Class Passenger
Member # 956

posted 08-16-2000 02:41 PM      Profile for AJL   Author's Homepage   Email AJL   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, this is absolutely totally infernal situation.

The Russian Navy announced today that there is 118 people onboard the ship, not 116.

Russian Navy tried three times to rescue the people onboard, but they failed. It took 18 hours and then they asked help from Norway and GBR.

The submarine from GBR is now in Norway, and is ready to leave to the place where the KURSK sank.

There has been different opinions of the Oxygen-situation, some have said it'll be enough for 0,4 or 9 days, who knows, I think the right choice is 0 days. By the way, the Foreign Affairs Department of Norway indicated yesterday, that the KURSK sank already in last Saturday, 12th of August, not in Sunday. Russia wanted to cover up the
whole thing, but there happened to be a vessel from USA in the Barentsea, and they told the rest of the world about the explosion and sinking.

I just hope that the help wouldn't come too late and that they would all survive!!

AJL


Posts: 710 | From: Helsinki, Finland (birth place of Nokia + many ships) | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Norway
First Class Passenger
Member # 1279

posted 08-17-2000 02:43 PM      Profile for Norway   Author's Homepage   Email Norway   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
To Cunardcoll:

Isn´t american vessel to weak to lift a submarine at this size? Last time they tried to lift a smaler russian submarine, the liftingclaw broke up in peaces and they lost parts of the submarine. I would not trust the same ship lifting a bigger vessel with living people inside!
And now as Russia have asked for help, why is it only GB(with a little bit of help from Norway) who can help, and not the USA?


Posts: 31 | From: Trondheim, Norway | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
sympatico
First Class Passenger
Member # 797

posted 08-18-2000 08:15 AM      Profile for sympatico     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This short report in our local paper.

"DEAD FOR DAYS?

Many of the 118 sailors aboard the nuclear submarine Kursk were probably killed instantly by the explosion that sent it to the floor of the Arctic Ocean, Russia's deputy prime minister admitted yesterday.

New underwater film shows the Kursk has a "terrifying hole" on its starboard (right) side that would have sent the vessel to the bottom in seconds, Deputy PM Ilya Klebanov said. "

This is so sad and heartbraking for the families of these men who are waiting at home for word of their loved ones.


Posts: 3305 | From: Toronto, Ont. Canada | Registered: Jul 99  |  IP: Logged
AJL
First Class Passenger
Member # 956

posted 08-18-2000 05:21 PM      Profile for AJL   Author's Homepage   Email AJL   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
TO ERIC:

I absolutely disagree with your comment: "Russia has NOTHING". They have so vast amount of nuclear weapons that they could destroy the whole world tens of times and I think that is something!!

However: This isn't the main issue, but the KURSK is. Norway's Seismological Center has received results, that in the Barentsea there were two explosions in Saturday; the other one was about 3,5 in Richter's scale. That's the same power as if 2 tons of dynamite would be exploded...

AJL

[This message has been edited by AJL (edited 08-18-2000).]


Posts: 710 | From: Helsinki, Finland (birth place of Nokia + many ships) | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
kbozman
First Class Passenger
Member # 642

posted 08-18-2000 06:12 PM      Profile for kbozman   Email kbozman   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hi everyone,

Quite frankly, I believe that if it were
not for stolen German technology that Russia
would not have been a threat (cold war)
after WW 11. Russia repatriated some 700
scientists from Germany with the threat of
"Do or die" Remember that during the
siege of Berlin there were many Russians
who had never seen a light bulb !
they thought that if they carried them around
with them, somehow they would light on
there own ! German technolgy gave Russia
the jump start it needed to become a
great European power and a threat to
western civilization. After Glasnost, Russia
left to it's own device has erroded to where
it is today. Example: The space station...

All of that aside, my heart goes out to
the men on the sub, and to thier families.
One of the worst things that could have
happened is to be trapped in a tin coffin.

Also, the legacy of WW11 still haunts us,
and will continue when countries such
as Russia continue to push beyond the bounds
of what is possible or safe for the rest
of the world.

kbozman.


Posts: 154 | From: Hanover Pa, USA | Registered: Jul 99  |  IP: Logged
AJL
First Class Passenger
Member # 956

posted 08-20-2000 01:10 PM      Profile for AJL   Author's Homepage   Email AJL   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
TO ERIC:

Is your grandmother 5 years old?!?

The Kursk was built in 1995 and she has many siosterships.

My knowledge is this: Russia hasn't cut it's money for the defence. They can't pay saleries for years to Russian workers, but they use unbelievable sums of money to the defence.

AJL

AND BY THE WAY: RUSSIA HASN'T GOT A "COMMUNIST PRESIDENT", AS YOU CLAIMED. THE COUNTRY HAS BEEN DEMOCRATIC FOR SOME 10 YEARS. THE PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA IS VLADIMIR PUTIN, AN EX-KGB-AGENT. THE COUNTRY'S NAME WOULD BE THE SOVIET UNION, IF IT STILL WAS COMMUNISTIC!

MAYBE YOU SHOULD GROW UP BEFORE YOU WRITE ANYTHING THAT YOU AREN'T SURE ABOUT!!! I THINK THAT YOU ARE DEFINITELY A RASIST.

[This message has been edited by AJL (edited 08-20-2000).]


Posts: 710 | From: Helsinki, Finland (birth place of Nokia + many ships) | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Patrick
First Class Passenger
Member # 364

posted 08-20-2000 01:39 PM      Profile for Patrick     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And, just to add, why does the US is still building new weapons and building up defensive material ?? So, they still fear something from the East I think.
Russia definitely has some potential left but they hide it ! And if the KURSK would be so old (anno 1995) it still must not be the reason why it collappsed. It can as well be collidied with another object.
And, lets take the Concorde as an example. It was not Russian and anway broke down, so not all what comes from Russia or is used by Russia is bad only because it has to do with Russia. Also our things can brake down.

But sorry guys, I don´t think a discussion of such a matter should be held in this forum. Further more we should better think about the poor guys who died in the KURSK !


Posts: 1680 | From: OSC Luxembourg | Registered: Nov 98  |  IP: Logged
AJL
First Class Passenger
Member # 956

posted 08-21-2000 04:46 AM      Profile for AJL   Author's Homepage   Email AJL   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, I'll stop the discussion about Russia now.

Well, the Norwegian divers opened the rescue-hatch today, and there was water inside. It was only the outer hatch and they'll probably open the inner one also today. That's all what's new about the accident.

AJL


Posts: 710 | From: Helsinki, Finland (birth place of Nokia + many ships) | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
PC
First Class Passenger
Member # 1191

posted 08-21-2000 12:54 PM      Profile for PC   Email PC   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
AJL, you need not be so harsh on Eric; he's only 17 years old, and is still growing up. He lives in Hong Kong, and his native language is not English, but probably Cantonese. Yet, he has designed and built his own website, and how many of us can make that claim, especially doing it in a foreign language.

Give him some slack. What had you accomplished by the time you were age 17?


Posts: 102 | From: Hong Kong, SAR | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Patrick
First Class Passenger
Member # 364

posted 08-21-2000 01:44 PM      Profile for Patrick     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Latest sad news:
The inner hatch was opened today by the Norwegians. Also there was plenty of water already so most probably the KURSK was already floated quite soon after it sank.
The new underwater-pictures sadly confirm that all of the 118 crew-members are dead.
The authorities are discussing now how to act to recover the bodies of the soldiers and what to do with the KURSK. Greenpeace wants it to be recovered because of the atomar-engines. It is not easy since it needs lots of attention and calculations if this can be done without providing an incident.

Posts: 1680 | From: OSC Luxembourg | Registered: Nov 98  |  IP: Logged
NAbbott
First Class Passenger
Member # 1522

posted 08-21-2000 06:14 PM      Profile for NAbbott   Email NAbbott   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Guys,

Enough already!

Say a prayer for the families of the men who lost their lives.

Nancy


Posts: 23 | From: Monroe, LA | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
topgun
First Class Passenger
Member # 928

posted 08-21-2000 06:53 PM      Profile for topgun     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Instead of all the name calling, lets get to some facts that may be interest.
As credentials, I was connected with the development of HTP engines following on from their development by Germany during WWII.
Test installations were made in British submarines in the 1950"s and probobably led to the loss of HM submarine Affray in the English channel at that time.
The great advantage to high test peroxide [HTP] was its ability to be used as a propulsion fuel without needing a supply of outside oxygen. This allowed for extended underwater cruises without surfacing.
The introduction of nuclear power made the HTP engine obsolete as a main propulsion unit.
Its use was however carried over to torpedo units and has been used extensively by navies for this purpose.
The biggest problem with HTP is its instability. Simply it explodes easily if not handled properly. This probably was the cause of the loss of Affray and also the recent Russian loss.
Personally, I believe that the Russian Navy had a fairly good idea about what happened very early on. Consider:
First reports quoted contact with survivors by tapping on the hull.
Fact, all submarines are equipped with a device no more complicated than a modern telephone. This is released internally and floats to the surface. It has a beacon locator. Somebody on the surface simply picks it up and says "hello". What happened to this. Maybe nobody was alive to activate this
Fact,within short order it was announced that the casings were torn outward at the conning tower and midships. US vessels in the area had recorded two explosions. Probable cause? An HTP internal explosion causing massive flooding.
All of this is personal speculation. My theory and facts may be wrong. If the sinking was as speculated, at least it was a fairly sudden death for the crew instead of slow suffocation.

Posts: 759 | From: Burlington ont,canada Cruise center of North America | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
AJL
First Class Passenger
Member # 956

posted 08-22-2000 05:14 AM      Profile for AJL   Author's Homepage   Email AJL   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
PC - I am 17. And I think I've accomplished a lot: In 2 years I have taken photos of nearly 300 ships, collected some 200 postcards of ships and 30 books about ships.

---------------------------------------------
I feel so sorry about all the sailors' families. The accident was never supposed to happen.

AJL

[This message has been edited by AJL (edited 08-22-2000).]


Posts: 710 | From: Helsinki, Finland (birth place of Nokia + many ships) | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Patrick
First Class Passenger
Member # 364

posted 08-22-2000 01:28 PM      Profile for Patrick     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here the updated reports from Mikhail MOZAK, the presisdent of Russian navy.
He said that the accident of the KURSK might have happened due to a failure during an excercise with one of Russia´s largest navy-ship. The navy-ship was told to lauch a special missile which was supposed to be destroyed by a missile from the KURSK. It should have been test-exercise. But the missile from the KURSK was not launched at time or didn´t work and so the missile from the other ship destroyed the the front part of the KURSK.
That would mean that Russia has killed some of its own soldiers due to a huge mistake or failure in their systems.
We don´t know if this version is true but it could be possible, some German inspectors confirmed.
But they will continue to clear up the raeson for this tragic accident.

Posts: 1680 | From: OSC Luxembourg | Registered: Nov 98  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm @ cruisepage
Cruise Director
Member # 301

posted 08-26-2000 01:58 PM      Profile for Malcolm @ cruisepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have just returned from a Baltic cruise. I spoke to the guest lecturer onboard the ship, who is a maritime historian. He often works with Norwegian and British diving crews to recover ship wrecks. I of course asked him about the Kursk.

He said that even if the sub had not been flooded, the life support systems would probably fail pretty quickly. He felt that the crew would die of hyperthermia within a few hours - long before the air ran out.

Very sad.


Posts: 19210 | From: Essex (Just Outside London) | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
gohaze
First Class Passenger
Member # 586

posted 08-26-2000 05:02 PM      Profile for gohaze   Email gohaze   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hi...despite all the conjecture and the many false rumours being put out by high up Russians trying to 'clear their own yard-arms', about the best reson put forward is that the Russian torpedoes are driven by hydrogen-peroxide. This is extremely volatile and unstable, and the Americans and Brits stopped experimenting with it many years ago because of that.
A mis-fire probably caused the first explosion in the tube and this in turn caused a fire which cooked off all the others and thus the major 2nd. explosion - which may have involved some of the missiles as well.
Anything else, such as a collision, a bomb dropped by a Ukrainian aircraft, or even a wrong run torpedo, would not have caused that amount of damage....peter

An update...today's London Sunday Times says that there were two experts from the Dagdizel plant on board to check on an upgrade of the 'Squall' torpedo. This torpedo has a propeller to leave the tube but then becomes rocket driven using liquid fuel. One Brit expert said 'the danger is if the second stage fires inside the sub. Then you can say goodnight'.

[This message has been edited by gohaze (edited 08-26-2000).]


Posts: 1909 | From: Vancouver.BC | Registered: Sep 99  |  IP: Logged

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